Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer

I have been preaching for 20 years.  Yesterday I did something that I have never done before in a sermon.  I publicly called out false teachers and named them by name.  I said,

If you listen to Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer, if you take what they teach seriously, it will not be good for you.  It will be detrimental to your long-term growth as a follower of Jesus.

(You can watch the sermon by clicking here)

I used to think that their error was so blatantly obvious that they could just be ignored.  I was wrong.  They are massively growing in popularity in the evangelical world and are seen as credible and helpful.  Before I’m inundated with questioning emails I want to share why I distrust these two and think you should as well.  So, don’t shoot met–at least not yet.

This post will be long, very long.  And it will link to source material.  There is likely more here than you care to ingest in one sitting.  Take your time.  Work through it carefully.  I think you owe it to yourself and as you will see in this blog, we owe it to less fortunate Christians around the world.

When I was a kid I could tell the difference between neighborhood kids who wanted to be my friend from the neighborhood kids who were my friends so that they could play with my toys.  Joel and Joyce are the latter.  They both teach a twisted form of Christianity that teaches obedience, giving and faith as a way to get things from God.  They are both products of what is known as the Prosperity Gospel and The Word of Faith Movement, or the Seed Faith Movement.

DANGERS OF THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL

John Piper does a great job of defining what the Prosperity Gospel is and why it is so sinister.  Please take a few minutes to watch this before moving on the critiques of Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen.

JOYCE MEYER

When I first heard her tell her story I was deeply moved and impressed.  She is an amazing example of overcoming hurts and abuse.  She will forever have my admiration and respect in that regard.  Furthermore, she gives spectacular advice.  If my wife or if one of my daughters went to her in a moment of crisis, I believe they would return with magnificently helpful advice.  If they went to her for teaching, they would return with deadly heresy.

False Doctrine

1.  She teaches that Jesus literally stopped being the Son of God on the Cross:  http://craigbrownsreformedtheology.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/clip-6-joyce-meyer.mp3

“He could have helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your hands, at that point he couldn’t do nothing for himself anymore. He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin.”   Joyce Meyer

2.  She teaches that Jesus went to Hell and became the first-born again man:  http://craigbrownsreformedtheology.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/clip-7-joyce-meyer.mp3

“Do you know something? The minute that blood sacrifice was accepted Jesus was the first human being that was ever born again. Now that was real it happened when he was in hell.”

3.  She teaches that Jesus paid for our sins in Hell:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwNfOaxIcOM

“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell”  Joyce Meyer (The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make) 

4.  She teaches that words have power and you can release the power of Heaven through your words:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInxKmfgts0

5.  She teaches that you need special revelation from God to understand what she teaches because it is NOT contained in the Bible: http://craigbrownsreformedtheology.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/clip-2-joyce-meyer.mp3

“The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really. That’s why you’ve got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I’m telling you. I’ve got to just trust God that He’s putting it into your spirit like He put it into mine.”  Joyce Meyer (What Happened from the Cross to The Throne? audio)  

http://craigbrownsreformedtheology.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/clip-4-joyce-meyer.mp3

“Now spirits don’t have bodies, so we can’t see them. Okay? There probably is, I believe there is, and I certainly hope there is several angels up here this morning that are preaching with me. I believe that right before I speak some anointed statement to you, that one of them bends over and says in my ear what I’m supposed to say to you.”  Joyce Meyer (Witchcraft & Related Spirits (Part 1) – 2 A-27 Audiotape)

6.  She teaches that she is no longer a sinner:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dmHJdM63hk

Unfortunately I could continue with examples of her utter misuse of scripture, false teaching and blatant heresy.  In America, Christians have an embarrassment of riches.  We can buy more books, download more podcasts and tune into more helpful teachers than anyone else on the planet.  The lies that she teaches are easily lost in the hum of all the great teachers we hear.  But this is not the case in the third world.

In many other countries their resources are far fewer.  Uneducated pastors, who are doing their very best and uninformed Christians have this garbage pumped into their countries through radio waves and TV broadcasts.   Because Joyce Meyer is endorsed here, she is trusted there.  And, she can afford to spread her message with the money she makes from American Christians who buy her books, CDs and who attend her conferences.  Her influence is severely disrupting the church in the third world.  Her teachings are the unfortunate starting point for Christians in the third world and it is birthing even greater heresies.

The devastating reality that we have to come to grips with is that when we support her here, we support the churches she is undoing there.

Financial Concerns

There is nothing wrong with being wealthy.  I love it when Christians are rich.  That should mean more money to fund the mission.  But there is a line to how much money we as leaders should spend on ourselves.  I don’t know where the line is, but it is somewhere before the ministry purchasing million dollar homes for us and our kids.  That line is somewhere before purchasing us a $10 million private jet.  The line is somewhere before the ministry spending $261, 498 for 68 pieces of furniture.  That equates to $3,845.56 per item.  That line is somewhere before spending so egregiously that the U.S. Senate investigates us.  Joyce Meyer lands on the other side of that line.

The following link includes audio from Joyce Meyer.  Around 5:30 she is asked if people will get more money back to them if they give financially to her ministry:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlWQsoA7D24

Not only does she teach giving as a way to leverage more money from God, she is reckless with desperate people.  She is not at all concerned if people give to her instead of paying bills.  This is intolerable!

Questionable Example and Lack of Accountability

I challenge you to watch a typical message by Joyce Meyer.  Here are a few of things you will notice:

  • She pauses about every 5 minutes for applause.  And if people don’t applaud she is likely to say something like, “I’m preaching better than you’re acting.”
  • She talks about herself constantly.  She is the main character in every story she tells.  Even when she talks about herself in a self-deprecating way, some how it comes across in a way that causes people to admire her more.
  • God talks to her and reveals new information to her…a lot!

Her ministry lacks real accountability.  Her family and her close friends are the governing board.  This is an organization that receives almost $100 million dollars annually, and with no substantive accountability.

Conclusion for Joyce Meyer

What I wrote and linked in the first section should have been enough to completely remove her from our sphere of trust.  Her doctrine is horrific.  Her hermeneutics are horrible.  She is a woman who seems to have an unrestrained love for money and applause.  Her finances are questionable at best.  Her example is questionable at best.  Her impact on desperate people here, as well as churches and pastors around the globe is wildly destructive.

I lament with you a sense of loss if she was a teacher you trusted.  I lament that someone who is so wrong has so much influence with so many.  I do not regret, however, pointing to her as a false teacher and as one who should be rejected.

JOEL OSTEEN

Like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen has some really great things to say.  He is encouraging and the man is certainly happy.  This should not be held against him.

The man is confused on theology.  He has much of the same doctrinal misunderstandings as does Joyce Meyer.  They come from the same tradition.  His doctrine is difficult to discern for many because he won’t talk about doctrine.  He won’t talk about theology.  He quickly back pedals when asked hard questions, as seen here in an interview with Larry King:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKF_QgNezBY

In fairness, Joel published a letter of apology after this interview:  http://www.joelosteenblog.com/2005/07/13/joel-osteens-letter-about-the-interview/

While I commend him for his humility and courage to publicly declare that he was wrong, this is just one of too many instances.  He frequently misunderstands important matters of faith and doctrine when being interviewed.  He repeatedly gets the Gospel wrong.  And he does so when talking to millions.

If we take Joel at his word, our only conclusion is that he is either incapable or unwilling to understand and explain how the Gospel intersects with all of life.

We recently hosted Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answerman) at SMCC.   He has some very helpful insights into Joel Osteen’s confused views of faith, doctrine and Scripture:

http://www.equip.org/discernment-and-aberrant-teachings/the-teaching-of-joel-osteen-2/

http://salemnet.vo.llnwd.net/o29/bibleanswerman/hankspeaksout/joel_osteen.mp3

Joel Osteen and Prosperity Gospel

The Prosperity Gospel is much like all other religions in that it uses faith, it uses doing good things to leverage material blessings from God.  Essentially, use God to get things from God.

“God has already done everything He’s going to do. The ball is now in your court. If you want success, if you want wisdom, if you want to be prosperous and healthy, you’re going to have to do more than meditate and believe; you must boldly declare words of faith and victory over yourself and your family” Your Best Life Now, p.132

“If you are believing for your child to find God, go help somebody else’s child to develop a relationship with God. If you’re struggling financially, go out and help somebody who has less than you have….If you want to reap financial blessings, you must sow financial seeds in the lives of others….If you want to see healing and restoration come to your life, go out and help somebody else get well” Your Best Life Now, pp. 224, 250–51

This is not the Gospel.  This is a false Gospel.  Joel teaches that we open ourselves to God to get more from God.  He teaches that we use our words to speak into existence a better reality.  This straight from the Word of Faith Movement.  This is not what is taught throughout the New Testament.  Consider what the Apostle Paul wrote.  And remember that he wrote this while in prison.

Philippians 4:10-13 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

CONCLUSION

When I was in seminary, Heather and I were poor.  There were seasons in which I worked 70+ hours a week while taking a full-time Master’s load.  There were times that I had to sleep every other day so that I could get all my work done.  This was an extended period of exhausting financial stress.

During this time, I remember reading something from Joel Osteen.  He and his wife claimed by faith a new house that they wanted.  Joel was unsure, but his wife Victoria was confident.  And she lovingly chastised him for his lack of faith.  Sometime later, they purchased that house.  Still in seminary, my wife and I were walking through our dream neighborhood and that was playing through my mind.  As I walked through the neighborhood, looking at all the homes, I wanted so badly for what Joel is teaching to be true.  I don’t know if you can understand how desperately I wanted it to be true.

I wanted relief and I wanted more.  But I knew that it wasn’t true.  I knew that my exhaustion and desperation made me emotionally vulnerable to this false Gospel.  I’m educated and well read.  I’ve haven’t just read the Bible, I’ve translated large chunks of it from the original Hebrew and Greek.  I think I understand it.  I think I have a relatively significant level of discernment.  But for a moment, I was emotionally vulnerable to this false doctrine.

What about the millions of others who are desperate, searching, hoping and vulnerable without the discernment?  We owe it to them to not tolerate this false gospel any longer.

If you made it to the end of this blog post, congratulations.  This is a thick and heavy subject.  Even though I’ve written much, this only begins to scratch the surface of the repugnant nature of the Prosperity Gospel.

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About Rick Henderson

Happy husband. Proud father. Friend of Jesus Christ and desperate to introduce him to others. View all posts by Rick Henderson

1,854 responses to “Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer

  • Nicole Maki

    This is such a great article, Rick. My mom and my whole (maternal side) family is part of the Word Faith, Prosperity movement and it’s just devastating to see how it takes advantage of their desperation, lack of education and their hope. One of the other sinister aspects of it is that it blames the person for their lack of faith if things don’t work out. What a perfect racket for those at the top.

    It’s heart breaking seeing my mom send the last of her grocery money as “seed” to these ‘evangelists’ in order to move God’s hand so, “He’ll return it to her tenfold.”

    I’d send her a link to this terrific blog post but I know she’d dismiss you as a false teacher.

    Thanks for this post.

    • Anonymous

      Nicole, Isn’t it ironic about taking advantage of desperation, lack of education, and hope? Those are the exact people who flocked to Jesus in person! One should certainly not need to have an education to come to Jesus. But I do agree that is precisely the approach that is being counterfeited and we must trust that of course He knows the hearts and minds of His own, and will bring His will to pass, no matter which battles each of us chooses to take on. But don’t think that prayer alone is not effective. It is probably the best thing you can do for your family!

      • Anonymous

        However, remember, when crowds came around Jesus he spoke truth to them. For instance, the sermon on the mount was great…But, watch how they quickly flocked away when things became uncomfortable…ultimately ending at the cross, but even before then…the Bible often shows that he broke up a crowd by bringing in “money/wealth” issues or saying something like Matthew 10:37.

      • CBS

        This is simply not accurate. What is remarkable is Jesus attracted all kinds, fishermen, tax collectors, kings, etc. Check out who Zacchaeus or Nicodemus were before making this statement.

        I appreciate the fact that light is being shine in this serious area. I do not know enough about either subjects of the essay, but do pray that truth reigns in their life.

      • Anonymous

        Perhaps that moment, when you felt vulnerable to this, was a moment when the trials and struggles you were going through were breaking through a hard heart of unbelief and your spirit was longing for you to only believe. John 6:28-29. Be it done for you according to your faith. Matt.9:29b.

      • Alisa Deigert Gremore

        I do not know Joel Osteen, but I love Joyce Meyer as do a lot of people. She has helped millions build and maintain a real relationship with Jesus. I am sure she is not perfect but believe her heart is true, even if (and I do not believe this) she were an imposter God can use “bad” things for good. But again, I love her perfect or imperfect as Jesus loves all of us with out imperfections. I thank God for her, she is constantly pushing people to read God’s word. I went to a church where the minister said he did not apologize for not welcoming gays, he just did not. One might be okay, he said if the man pursued aggressive counseling (3-4 times a week.) I went home and threw up. I thank God for the joy and comfort she has brought into my life through her teachings and her books.

      • Jane

        We must remember that the people that Jesus drew to Himself were all unsaved. Most of the people that Joyce and Joel teach are saved. The Sermon on the mount was the essence of what He taught to those people. There is nothing about attaining physical wealth in the message of the Kingdom of God. In fact, He said is the student greater than the Master? Was Jesus wealthy? Did He have houses, donkeys, cattle? Did any of the apostles have wealth? They were put in prisons, exiled, stoned, whipped, beheaded, crucified …. doesn’t sound like the life lead by many of the famous teachers we see on T.V. If I am going to give, and I do give generously, I give to my local church and missions in my own community. Our primary mission is to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God …. Jesus said to Peter that Satan would sift you (that “you” is plural) and none would make it if it were not for Jesus. If you are not being sifted at some point in your life, I say look out. We are not better than our Master!!!

      • Steven Kay

        Actually Jesus himself said “he who believes in Me, the wors that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do” (John 14:12). To me this says that He wanted us to exceed Him.

        Also, God rewarded the truly faithful with wealth regularly, so He was not against riches. Like Abraham, many believers were rulers and kings, even after suffering many hardships, ie: Job.

        I will never believe that God needs to me to suffer in poverty endless just to be a good servant, and I use what He chooses to bless me with to continue to promote His Kingdom.

      • Damon Whitsell

        Stephen,, you must be almost insane to think you can “exceed Jesus” who is God in the flesh and healed the blind, raised the dead and paid the price for all mens souls. What greater works than these can be done?

        If you would break out a concordance you would see that the word for “greater” in the greek denotes the quantity of works not greater quality works. The reason for this greater quantity of works is that Jesus came for Israel first and foremost and they rejected him and even all his disciples were cowardice until they receive endowment by the Holy Spirit. But still their ministry was longer than Jesus who came into the world and the world received him not. Thus His disciples made more converts than Jesus did. But they never raised the dead or saved a mans soul. Only Jesus can do those.

        G3187 μείζων meizōn mide’-zone
        Irregular comparative of G3173; larger (literally or figuratively, specifically in age): – elder, greater (-est), more.

        It’s funny that you reference Job that said “the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. And not all biblical figures had riches. Jesus, paul and all his disciples where not rich and all of them were killed for their faith. How is that for prospering and being rich.

        I have never met one single Christian that thinks God wants his people to be poor. That Christians think this is a myth that prosperity teachers propagate. But God does expect us to be kool with whatever He gives us,, whether riches or poverty.

    • kelvin

      Truth is, they might have such ideology which does not go with yours, but instead of putting it on media, you should meet and correct them. if you really claim you are a true believer, you won’t be judging them, bible says judge not, so as not to be judge. Please make them know their heresy rather than disgracing the church of God, this is exactly why muslim are better off, they are greatly united even with different ideologies. May God help you more, but using this public disgrace of church is against the law of God

      • mike

        Kelvin…From one who lives in the Muslim world…they are definitely NOT greatly united.

      • Sally

        I agree with most of what you say … but you also agree with this Rick guy that this is “heresy” … I don’t always agree with Joyce or Joel but I’m not about to throw stones. When you know the truth, you can discern … we have wisdom from Christ to figure it out. All I know is that Christ came to save the “UNGODLY” … which all of us are … I repeat ALL … If you want truth and revelation, read the inspired word of God

      • bortmann

        “His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserve to go… There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth.” Joyce Meyer

        Enough said! The Lamb of God, giving His life on the cross, shedding His precious blood, was for redemption. Anyone teaching another gospel let them be accursed.

      • Gerald Wayne

        Um, but isn’t this “disgrace” what you yourself have just done Kelvin? You publically posted rather than admonishing him personally?

      • Paula

        Sally, that is a great response. However, to say that Muslims are better off, is ABSOLUTELY not true. Their religon is confusing to me, as well. They have a law that says they should hate Christians and Jews, yet some say they are a peaceful religon….CONFUSING!!!! Some live with that SEVERE HATRED and it comes out in the terrorist acts we see performed by them. While others would never hurt anyone, but that isn’t unity. Though Christians are DIVIDED, which is SAD, to say the least, how often do you see them killing in the name of their God.

      • Joel Porter

        this is a VERY long article and post… kind of long-winded hate for a fellow Christian… what is the point? to call someone a “false” teacher…when in truth he has some “problems” with “some” of what they say. this is exaggeration… in hope of getting clicks. – a “headline” and then a lot of baloney to follow up on with some big questions we ALL struggle with. We as Christians can debate doctrine and practice of rituals and even the context of Bible verses and of course, talk about what we feel is important in our faith but it does NOT have to include damning others of faith. WE each follow our own path to Christ or God or spirituality. God loves us as unique individuals even though we are his flock, each one of us is special. This posting comes off as sour grapes rather than point out the DANGER in a false teacher.

      • Kim

        The law of God cannot be disgraced but the theology of men can be. Jesus called to attention false theology in the Synagogue and called out the leaders publicly who were guilty. Paul called out by name those who were teaching a false gospel and reverting back to Jewish law. Casting a light to a lie is what we are called to do, and pastors and teachers must be willing to be held accountable to a higher level of scrutiny for the sake of the Church. These leaders have been confronted with their errors time and again yet they refuse to repent and correct their teaching, therefore it is necessary to warn the body.

      • bortmann

        Afraid not Jennifer,
        I’ll expose such enemies of the cross as Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Ken Copeland, Jessie Duplantis, and Rod Parsley any chance I get. I care about the millions these heretics are deceiving. The reason they are so successful is because most within the body of Christ refuse to take a righteous stand against their doctrines of demons.

      • Richard

        Kelvin, the verse you chose to quote and is widely misused, has nothing to do about judging. Most take this verse out of context. This verse is about judging and if you judge, that you will be held accountable the same way.

        2 Peter 2:1-3 ESV

        But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

        There is many verses in the bible in regards to false teachers and prophets. It would be negligent of all who claim to be followers of Christ, to not call those out who teach falsely.

      • Anonymous

        We don’t judge people but we need to judge teaching?? How foolish is it to follow every false teacher that comes along. We can’t judge where they will spend eternity buy we must have good judgement of what they teach here.

      • Anonymous

        God didnt say discuss it with the false prophets..this will at least cause christians ariund the world to consider how they are feeding their faith…

      • Anonymous

        Paul called out false teaching “in public” on a consistent basis. What they are doing is not biblical, but calling out those who are teaching a false gospel is Biblical.

      • Dan Hudson

        The Bible also reminds us that we do judge those inside the faith and that God judges those outside. How else would Paul have put a person out of the church because of sin in hopes he would repent?

      • Anonymous

        Jesus severely rebuked the Jewish leaders PUBLICLY for their hypocrisy; Paul certainly named names of false teachers in his epistles. We should do the same. Good for you, Mr. Henderson, for exposing their lies.

      • Christan H.

        John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
        1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
        1 Corinthians 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

        Should We Never Judge?There is an extremely serious error that is being believed by the vast majority of people caught up in christian religion. This error is literally making those folks unwilling and unable to discern truth. And what is this error? It is believing that all “judgment” is wrong. If this is true, then what is to be made of Jesus’ Words above? In the verses above, Jesus clearly commands people to judge, commends people for judging, and judges himself.The key point to understand is that not all judgment is wrong, just various types of judgment. The types of judgment that are wrong according to Jesus are condemnation, as well as hypocritical and self-righteous judgment. On the other hand, right judgment is commended by Jesus as we see above. Right judgment includes the judging of truth versus falsehood. The sincere, serious and sober judgment of our own sins, as well as the gentle, and compassionate judgment and correction of other’s beliefs or sins.Tragically, Satan is doing a masterful job in christianity’s organizations in regard to confusing people over the issue of “judgment”. People have been lead to believe that it is “un-loving” to correct someone who is in error, whether by word or deed. Certainly many have contributed to Satan’s lie of “don’t judge anyone” by being harsh, ungracious or unmerciful in their judgments. It is easy for a person – after being excoriated by a modern day Pharisee who is telling them that they are going to hell if they don’t believe something that Jesus doesn’t even address – to be pushed to believe that all “judgment” is wrong.In like manner, many more have contributed to Satan’s lie by taking the position that anything said to correct someone, no matter how gently done, is “ungracious” or unloving. These folks are the counterfeit believers who dogmatically state that all judgment is wrong (except their own of course!), especially the kind that points out the falsehoods they are believing. I can’t count how many times have I heard the accusation, “oh, brother, you should not say that those who believe the doctrine’s of the christian church are in error – that is judging them and Jesus says we are not to judge others. You are being divisive by your judgment. You need to come to an understanding of Jesus’ love…” Notice how I am judged as “un-loving” comparing Christianities beliefs with Jesus’ Words. I could be the kindest, most gentle, caring, compassionate, giving, selfless person on the planet (which I am not), but if I believe that the teachings of Christianity lead people away from Jesus, then I am judged as “un-loving” and usually much worse. Ironic, isn’t it? That when I try to point out how a teaching of Jesus contradicts a doctrine of Christianity, I will be judged as a heretic or worse? So, while I try to look at a belief that someone holds, and they don’t like the truth that I might be bringing, they are only too quick to break their own “don’t be judgmental” belief to condemn my person.Guess who is being judged as un-loving and divisive in these last days? The True and Real Jesus himself is being judged as un-loving and divisive, for he said, “I am the Way, the truth and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). Of course the Jesus that Christianity creates is approved however.Surely you have either been accused yourself, or have been the accuser, saying to someone something like, “you had better be careful, brother, you are judging someone and Jesus says we are not to judge”. Normally, this response comes when you have said (or have heard someone say) something that is perceived as negative (in reality probably corrective) about some person or belief or event or organization.The truth is we all make judgments all the time. If you see a man beating up a young child, you will make a judgment that his behavior is wrong and needs to be stopped. If you hear a person say something you perceive as negative about your mother or children, then you will immediately judge that person’s words! If you decide not to go into a certain neighborhood during the evening hours, then you are making a judgment. As you listen to some preacher say that God commands you this night to give your entire savings account to his ministry, you will make a judgment. As you are reading my words in this article, you are judging them against your understanding of what is truth. This is a good thing, for the Lord commands it (John 4:24, 8:32), and it is part of the rational mind that God gave us to seek truth.Telling people not to judge is irrational, for in doing so, you yourself have judged their words or actions, and that is why you told them not to judge! As soon as you tell someone not to judge, you yourself have judged their opinion or judgment as somehow wrong. This can make for an irrational go around of accusations of ‘you better not judge’. The real issue that must be recognized before the emotions get too impassioned, is what is the truth regarding the matter at hand. Instead of accusing one another of ‘judging’, what should happen is the more spiritually mature person should ask the all important question, “what does Jesus say in regard to this issue?” This is always the proper way out from accusations of “judge not”. Sadly, in many circumstances, those accusing another of ‘judging’ are not interested in what Jesus has to say, but rather in protecting their own incorrect opinions or tightly held traditions of men of which christianity is full.

      • steve

        When the Scripture says, “Do not judge” it is literally, ‘Do not be one who makes it a practice to always be judging others’…which means we can all out someone when what they teach is wrong as well as let others know when someone is teaching something that is false

      • Dave

        Kelvin, read 1 Corinthians 5:12 – we ARE to judge those in the church when they are wrong. Also 2 Tim.3:16 – how do you use scripture to rebuke and correct without pointing out sin and heresy? You have taken the do not judge scripture completely out of context to make your point.

      • nathanaeljc

        Kelvin, sorry to inform you, but the Muslim world is not united hence the fighting between the shia and the sunnis. I’ve talked to sunni muslims and they say the shia are blasphemers.

      • Katie

        Do you not realize that different sects of Muslims are literally blowing each other up? What planet do you live on?

      • Knitted in the Womb

        Actually, Paul’s public admonition of Peter sets an example for us that public teachers should be called out publiclly when their teaching is false.

      • Marie

        Muslims are NOT better off, Kelvin. Islam states Christ is not the son of God, and to say he is is blasphemy. That He is just a lesser prophet and will come on the Last Day and crush every cross on earth and proclaim Allah as the true god. So I guess to Islam, Jesus is a liar — so why give him any credence or status at all? Because Mohammed was “coat tailing” on the gospels and needed to mention Jesus to lead people astray. Muslims are better off? Mohammed was a pedophile. Women are nothing but breeders in much of the Muslim world. Koran teaches that Allah will not come until they’ve forcibly converted or killed every Christian and Jew on earth. Koran says they will be richly rewarded for it in heaven. That is why they are bent on killing innocents. Jesus said we would know false doctrines by their fruits — the fruits borne of the Zmuslim world are hatred, slaughter and misery. Stare sponsored in most cases with shariah law. No, they are not better off.

      • Tearis S Moon

        Beware of false profits, and if we allow evil to take place and lies to take place without standing up to them we are capable to prevent it then it is our fault. it is not about judgment, it about the truth, the truth has no agenda…. but your post reads like you do.

        God is not disgraced by false profits, unless the church allows them to preach false doctrine unchallenged… which is what truly makes us look weak.

      • timsarmywifeyHolly

        Actually if you read the scriptures everyone uses about “judging” God never says we as believers are not to judge one anothers walks and encourage one another on them (Kay Arthur calls it fruit inspecting). These are professing believers leading other astray you bet your booty God wants us to stand up for what is right — he didn’t mince words with the Pharisees one bit!

      • Anonymous

        If the Watchman does not warn the people of the coming of destruction, the blood of those who perish are on his hands. However, if he warns them and they choose not to listen their blood is on their own hands.

      • Dana Jones

        It’s not about judging Meyer or Osteen. It’s about discerning right teaching/preaching from wrong. If you preach the whole Canon, nothing more and nothing less, then you will be, in most cases, preaching rightly. When you add to Scripture saying people need a “special revelation” from God then you are preaching heresy. If you preach that Jesus is not God or that there is some way to be reconciled with God other than through faith in Jesus Christ alone then you have either not read the Scriptures or you have misinterpreted them. Let’s pray that God will change their hearts so that they read and interpret Scripture rightly before they bring destruction upon themselves. (1 Peter 2:1)

      • Tim

        Kelvin, you are misinterpreting scripture. The Bible speaks against HYPOCRITICAL judging… not ALL judging. This is another of those false teachings that has crept into popular culture. John 7:24 says we are to “judge righteous judgment.” We are also to point out false teachers… and you have to make a scripturally-based judgment in order to do that. A righteous judgment.

      • Rebecca Robinson-Bailey

        Kelvin, this research is not a disgrace to the church. Rick here is helping warn the flock. How exactly would he meet them and talk to them about their errors? They’re untouchable. I’m sure if he felt led to write this, he’s probably wrote them an email or sent a letter before. Many people have, but yet they don’t change their ways. There is nothing disrespectful in what Rick has stated. They are facts, written out of love and concern. Warning fellow Christians becomes our responsibility when “Christian leaders” are misleading others.

      • Dan

        Kelvin, I have to disagree with you. “Judge not…” is a very VERY over used and abused passage which many whip out any time they feel offended by what someone else has to say.

        A vitally primary aspect of the Christian faith is teaching. The Word of God is spread through words, teaching, preaching and the like. It’s not some magic thing that just happens, but, per God’s design, requires the lips of men.

        With that said, this certainly also opens the doors for FALSE teaching, because the lips of men are sinful lips and desire to speak things other than what God has already spoke. It’s that sinful nature within us which is always fighting to take control again of what God has declared His own.

        So how does a man of God deal with false doctrine? How does the church stand under one doctrine, one Word, one faith, one baptism, etc? First, the man of God must KNOW and TRUST the Scripture. Scripture is not difficult; it’s not cryptic; it’s not secretive. The Bible is quite plain and clear on what it says. Yes there are texts that require a bit of “background” and language skills, but that’s why we have trained and educated pastors – pastors who can whip out the Greek or Hebrew at a moment’s notice, pastors who can talk about church history, biblical history, nuances, traditions, and the like, to shed some light on texts that at first glance appear to be hard. This is “exegesis”, where we take out of the text its meaning (vs. reading into the text what we want it to say; eisegesis).

        Now what if someone, such as Osteen or Meyer, comes along and has obviously read their own thoughts and opinions into the Scripture? Do we let them be? Do we just let them create confusion and division in the Church? NO! Look at the what Jesus is constantly doing with the Pharisees. Look at what Paul does time and time again as he writes to the churches. Look at what the prophets of old do. One of their biggest tasks is to call out and shut down false prophets, false teachers, and heretics. Sometimes it’s by going right to the false prophet – right to his face. But much of the time it’s by telling the believers not to listen to the false prophets on account of their heresies.

        When a prophet of God speaks out against the heresies and false prophets, which are all over the place mind you, he is doing the will of God, as he is striving to keep the church united under one teaching – the teaching of Christ – and not the teachings of men.

        The primary and most principle doctrine of the Christian church is the doctrine of Justification by faith (alone). Every false prophet will attack THAT doctrine. In one way or another the heretic will try and undermine justification by faith, because that is the doctrine by which the church stands or falls. Joel Osteen, by preaching prosperity, undermines justification by faith. Joyce Meyer (who by the way used to be an LCMS lutheran like myself), by preaching that Christ stopped being the Son of God, and by preaching that there is more revelation beyond Scripture, undermines justification by faith. The list goes on.

        We as God’s preachers must, by our calling, ward off false doctrine, and this is part of the Christian faith and always has been.

        Your use of the word ‘judging’ is driven by a society that doesn’t like to be offended, but loves to be praised, for whatever decision or opinion it has…but not by faith.

        And your caterwauling about the ‘muslim’ religion…I would take that more seriously if there weren’t millions of people throughout history killed and tortured in the name of the “muslim god”. The people of God always seem to have one great threat against them sent by the devil. History makes pretty clear: that is the muslim religion. And yet the Church still stands strong and tall, because God is our helper and our strength in times of trouble, and His Word will and does ward of any false god, putting it to utter shame, and calling those idolaters to repent and believe the truth.

      • Onesimo Pot

        When TRUTH is spoken, God is pleased and the Gospel is enhanced. In that case, “Judge not ……” does not apply.

      • JULIA

        1 John 4:1 ESV / BEING ABLE TO DISCERN THE TRUTH IS DIFFERENT FROM BEING JUDGEMENTAL……..

        Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

      • Marlin

        Kelvin – The bible clearly teaches that we ARE to judge those within the church and to call out false teachers. Many mishandle God’s word with the “Don’t judge” quip. We ARE to judge – but not be judgmental. There is a difference. 1 Cor. 5:12 .For it is no business of mine to be judging those who are outside; but it is yours to be judging those who are among you;

      • Jaime

        Amen to that Marlin!

      • RHinojosa

        I agree.

      • Randy

        It is not wrong to judge a man, especially someone who calls themselves a preacher and pastor, by the Word of God. This is NOT about one man throwing stones at another for the sake of tearing him down, but of a man who is trying to warn MILLIONS of people about being sucked into false teachings. It is not only right, but his duty. Many love to jump on the do not judge bandwagon because it’s the perfect cover for ever having to face up to the truth. To show you how ridiculous your “do not judge” path is, do you judge someone who murdered another person? Do you judge a rapist? Do you judge someone who punched your family member in the nose? Of course you do. Duh. God did NOT tell us not to judge, but to beware, that in the same way we would be judged. And this is not a private matter. It is about two very public figures attracting MILLIONS of people who do NOT discern because they blindly follow what is nice to hear. It’s pure hogwash to think it wrong for calling out someone on their false teachings. If you listen to his own account of how he ended up in the ministry, he tells you he had no interest in it. It shows. He found the part he likes and ignores the rest. I would never recommend a person go hear Joel Osteen to hear the truth from God’s Word. I’ve heard him many times, and it just isn’t there.

      • EJ

        Kelvin – You are interpreting that passage about judging incorrectly. We are not to judge the world, as the world is behaving exactly as it should….lost. However, we ARE to “judge” or rebuke Christians who are not doing what they should. The question here is which applies to Osteen and Meyers. The only problem is how many people they are affecting. Their false doctrine must be called out.

      • Concerned Believer

        A believer is permitted to judge – however they must be prepared to be judged in like manner. The problem is some people dont want to point out obvious errors that other people committ out of fear their stupidity will come to light. I like this article and agree with it. Benny Hinn is another of those that are false prophets, with his throwing his coat on people and blowing on them – You know I have family that loved his ministry so much they went to see him. They were told that if they could not make a love donation of at least 1000 dollars they could not even get near the platform and definitely would not get on prayer from the man. They all make money for a corporation that has little to nothing to do with the kingdom of God.

      • Anonymous

        The Word of God judges our lives. So why is it a sin to use the words of scripture to identify sin in ourselves or false teaching?

      • Patrick

        Did you put this on media? or meet this man in person? And what relevance do other religions have here in this very specific post about false doctrine. In the Bible it is a leader’s duty to call out false doctrine in order to preserve the flock. Why would challenge that this man is a true believer?

      • Anonymous

        We are not to judge those outside of the church, we are supposed to hold those who CLAIM to be a part of the body, accountable. That verse has to be one of the most misquoted verses of all time. Virtually every book of the New Testament has something to say about false teachers and how we are supposed to watch out for them (how can we do that if we’re not discerning/judging?). Some of Jesus’ last words were about watching out for the ‘wolves’. So saying ‘judge not’ means that we are not supposed to call out heretical preachers, is a serious misapplication of that verse.

      • Michael

        That’s a very good point.

      • Mark

        Kelvin…telling God’s truth is not judging. Saying something which you have judged to be true and which you think may not apply to you is judging. God is the Judge. We are permitted to repeat His righteous judgements to warn, discipline and love others.And God’s truth must be applied to humans…or it is worthless religious ideology.

      • libertyadamsonliberty

        The reality is the people mentioned by the author, Osteen and Meyer are just the tip of the WOF iceburg. Zschech, Hayford, Jakes, Crouch, Robertson, Hinn, Prince and a host of others call this religous chicanery Christianity when it is not. Therein lies the crux of the thing – the above-named people have created a religion and in order to package it and sell books and make money, call it Christianity. It is not. The WOF movement has also said that Jesus was sodomized at the Cross by the Roman soldiers. The Bible does not say this or even alude to it. It’s made up out of their head to continue to control people with sensationalism and ‘extra-Biblical’ ‘understandsings’ so they can continue to say their movement is better than the last so they are more worthy of your money. Their level of incomprehension about the gospel is staggering. The problem becomes that whatever they are converting people to is something other than Biblical Christianity. They have a thing called ‘revelation theology’ that is nonsense. It amounts to a little kid saying ‘no you, infinity’ and is their way of saying ‘don’t question me’ just GIVE to me. The Bible says it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. And yet these people call the very thing that would seperate them and those who believe their fol-der-ol to be truth a ‘Blessing.’ Why would they count the very thing that blocks the from God as a blessing unless they have to ‘change’ the Gospel of Christ in order to make it fit their lavish lifestyles and their greed. They are not Christian leaders and have made themselves available to be judged because they have set themselves up as authorities when they are not.

      • Anonymous

        Difference between judging and correcting. The author actually praised both subject at various time, yet was calling out their teachings, not the persons themselves.

      • Anonymous

        United? Are you kidding me? Have you heard of the Sunni and Shia?

      • Anonymous

        It is not against the laws of God…. Paul wrote many letters that we use today as part of our bible to correct the problems of those churches.

      • ken

        Everyone judges others. Otherwise there would be no jails. When the Bible says “Judge not,” it didn’t mean we weren’t to tell the truth about evil and lies in the church. The Bible instructs us to warn about and judge false teachers.

      • Shaina

        The Bible also says to mark false teachers and to not let them be among you, so that is exactly what he is trying to do in this blog. I agree he should also approach them about their heresy but there is nothing wrong with labeling a false teacher.

      • Scott F.

        Kevin, you have successfully misquoted the most mis-interpreted passage in the entire Word of God.

      • Cande Stinson Kirk

        I so agree. Why do Christians go after their own? It breaks my heart!! If they are bringing thousands to the Lord, are they not doing God’s work for His Kingdom? Are they not saving souls every single day of their lives? Do you know what it is like flying all over the world, teaching about God and His Word and His love? Do you have any idea how hard this is? Do they not deserve a private plane, if they have the money, so that they can get back and forth to all these places? I think they do. I believe God has blessed their ministries. I don’t know much about Joel but I have been following Joyce Meyer ministries for over 20 years. She saved my life and since then has helped me to grow up from a sexually abusive childhood. She is a remarkable woman and God has blessed her for following Him in everything she does. I have watched this ministry grow and as a partner, I know where the money goes. She sends out yearly magazines showing where every penny is spent. Including her own salary. God wants us to have our hearts desires. He wants to bless us and He says he wants us to have life and enjoy it. Why do Christians want to take a few sermons out of thousands of sermons and say they are a prosperity preacher? That is not true of Joyce Meyer and everything she teaches, she uses scripture. And who are you to say that your interpretation is the right one? No one is going to know the whole truth until we get to heaven. How dare you judge these preachers!!!! Go after the ones who are not out there bringing people to the Lord and go after the ones who are not living what they preach!! Someone that is truly hurting others!!! Joyce Meyer feeds and helps people all over the world. It would blow your mind how much she gives and does with her ministry! Jesus said in the bible, to the disciples, when they said something about the people doing something on the Sabbath, to leave them alone if they are doing it in my name. Well, I think Jesus would say the same thing here. If they are spending their lives spreading God’s Word and building the Kingdom of God, LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!!! If you were as busy as Joyce Meyer, you wouldn’t have the time to go after another Preacher. Spend your time focusing on your on ministry. It just breaks my heart. Is it jealousy or do you truly think you are doing something to help people???? I can’t even tell you the number of people who have been saved or their lives have been changed by Joyce Meyer ministry just in the last 20 years since I have been sending out her books, Cd’s and DVD’s all over the world. I have a Christian group on face book and I use J.M material to help people from all walks of life and from every country. She is a blessing. Please stop nit picking and leave Gods people alone. If they are teaching about Jesus and how to get saved, why hurt them? Isn’t that what it is all about? Saving souls and winning people to the Lord? What would this world be like if we didn’t have so many people telling about Jesus? This is a dark cold world and it is waxing worse and worse. We need every Christian and every preacher we can get! The bigger they grow, the more people they are able to reach for the Lord! We are close to the end, shouldn’t your priorities be on winning souls, not going after a preacher that has spent her life loving God and helping others? Please pray about what you are doing and put your focus on something that can truly help God’s Kingdom and not destroy it by putting more doubt in peoples minds, than is already there about Christians and preachers. You are doing exactly what Satan wants. You are tearing down God’s Kingdom.

      • Theresa

        Kevin….This was just brought to my attention this week through a Christian friend who shared an email. It speaks mightily! Watch this 28 min. teaching by Andy Stanley on YouTube. It presents the biblical foundation of judging so you won’t mistakenly believe that we as Christians are not to judge…we do judge but it is who and how that is the question.

        Andy Stanley–insiders and outsiders

      • Anonymous

        Agreed 100%

      • Dean Greener

        Kelvin. That passage of Scripture is, perhaps, the most often misused in the entire Bible. We, as believers in sound Doctrine, are EXHORTED to expose false teaching no matter where we see it. Bot Olsteen and Meyer have been ‘counselled’ in letter and person many, many times. Paul had absolutely no issue with exposing the false Doctrine and naming names.

      • Theresa Syrjala

         Please unsubscribe me from this listing.  I cannot find a way to do so myself. Thank you and God bless you!

        “The kingdom of God is within you.  It is within the hearts and in the  midst of “Father’s” people,  consisting of “righteousness, peace, joy  and LOVE in the Holy Spirit.” 

        ________________________________

      • Jeff Hensley

        That is NOT true! The Bible does not teach that! “Judge not” is only taught by Jesus in the context of Pharisaical attitudes that judge others and ignore sin in their own lives. That passage DOES NOT teach that we should not judge or call out false teachers. 1 Corinthians 5 COMMANDS us to judge those within the church! Paul’s letters are absolutely full of examples of his calling out publicly false teachers! This kind of cowardly attitude that coddles sin inside the church is as wrong as the heresy that Meyers and Osteen teach. It is our responsibility to point out wolves to the vulnerable!

      • Eric Siverson

        You are not correct either ! Muslims are not united even among different ideaologies accept in their hatred of the Jews . look at Iraq , Iran and Syria . they are now competing to see who rules. They are not united in their religion .

      • mamaszrama

        That’s just not how Scripture encourages pastors especially to deal with false teachers. Read about how Paul confronted a publically-sinning Peter: to his face, in front of the whole church, and then wrote about it & sent his letter all around the world! Read how Jesus Himself confronted false teachers: loudly, offensively (calling them tombs full of rotting corpses!), in public. Public sin calls for public “calling out”– because at that point it isn’t just about the sinner repenting, but about making sure all the vulnerable listening to him aren’t led astray. We aren’t to quietly confront darkenss– we are to seek to put them clearly in the light! That’s exactly what this post is seeking to do. Notice that it isn’t done in a “judgy” standard, as if the author was a cut above, and these people were definitely doing everything from wrong motives– it’s all done with Scripture as the standard, using Joyce & Joel’s own words as evidence, not some assumed motive. Far from being called not to judge and leave it at that, we are called to not judge ourselves as better than others, AND we are called to prayerfully use wisdom & “make a right judgement.”

      • ZILEKENI

        The bible tells us to mark those that teach falsely and avoid them. they are enemies of the cross so thank you for exposing them

      • Wayne

        I am always amazed with professing “Christians” that criticize other believers for exposing the work of darkness. Clearly, many believers are biblically illiterate and that is why they do not have discernment to challenge false teachers like Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, and many others. In fact, I have a tape of Dollar teaching his unsuspecting people that “Jesus was not God when He came to the earth, but that He became God later”.

        Now, that is what Paul calls “Doctrines of Demons”, and believers are to call him out on such a destructive doctrine. I can assure you that the Lord Jesus doesn’t take lightly anyone teaching and misleading people in His name!

        I commend this gentleman for having the courage to speak the truth in love. I am worried about today’s so-called Christians as I’ve never met so many weak, biblically illiterate people that claim to know and love Jesus!

      • PreachaLady

        Articles like these which publicly come against popular ministers are only serving to give continuance to what the secular public perceives Christians as – that we are highly judgmental and take opportunity to strike at ministers we don’t agree with. The correcting should be attempted in private where our “dirty laundry” can’t hurt our testimony. If I was not a Christian already and I understand that some in the body of Christ feel that they, and only they have a monopoly on the truth…it is sickening. I would not want to seek help from such a judgmental, self-righteous bunch. So, I am a pastor myself and I have accountability and I am not afraid to speak truth boldly, but I don’t use “my pulpit” for any axes I want to grind. God help us! We need to ALWAYS consider how our bickering is going to affect unbelievers in a world which many ALREADY are calling post-Christian era.

      • Marie

        Meet and correct them… Very Wise

      • Dave

        Kelvin, Muslims are not even remotely united! Not only do Sunni and Shiite fight each other to the death (and there are several other smaller factions (denominations) within Islam) but the adherents of the individual groups within Islam do not agree on a wide range of things, including Jihad, Sharia, and terrorism issues in general, to name a few. What is more, God is not calling Christians to be united (Eph. 4) around false teachings, but only around truth. It would be ludicrous to think that God would want His followers to rally around something that He did not advocate.

      • happylada

        This main article is heartbreaking – to vilify faithful servants of God, doing what God called them to do is unconscionable.

        “If you listen to Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer, if you take what they teach seriously, it will not be good for you. It will be detrimental to your long-term growth as a follower of Jesus.”

        This statement is patently false, to the point of being a deliberate lie. My wife had her life revolutionized by listening to Joyce Myer. Sure, we don’t agree with every word she says – I have never found another Christian OR a church I could say that of. Instead of depression, she is happy as a clam. Instead of being discouraged she is full of hope. Instead of being confused about her Bible studies she is purposeful and diligent. THAT is the OPPOSITE of “it will not go good for you”

        This type of bully-pulpit heresy HAS to stop IF the church is ever to become relevant in this nation once more.

        Cessationists are, as a rule, more arrogant than right, and this disturbs me. They cannot support their dismissive attitudes towards those successfully and accurately teaching the Word from ANY understanding of scripture.

        I was raised fighting Baptist, but my spiritual life was empty. ONLY when I found the infilling of the Holy Spirit was I able to truly understand God’s love for me. OK – so it cost me my relationship with my parents. But it gave me a relationship with God. I value that more.

        We have established a church, earned an education, become a teacher, etc, none of which prevented depression. Hearing weekly how we were sinners, that poverty and sickness was God’s will for us, and that it was our responsibility to hang on til the end was NOT the GOOD NEWS of the gospel, and it didn’t meet my wife’s needs.

        BOTH Joyce Myers and Joel Osteen’s encouragement and presentation of the GOOD NEWS lifted her spirits and gave her the will to go on. While it may be melodramatic to say the good news was a lifesaver, it really was

        To castigate the Gospel puts one at odds with God; a position I refuse to take.

    • Betty jones

      uaually mothers know best. I doubt anyone has starved to death by sharying their groceGry money. Joyce and Joel are two of my favorite people to listen to. only god is judge.

      • my6gifts

        Betty, turn off the tv and open up your bible and read and you’ll see that these two are false prophets. Desperate people would absolutely starve to death, if not physically spiritually by giving money or time to Joel and Joyce, which just by your statement shows how spiritually desperate you are. Wake up sister, also don’t misquote the bible. We ARE to judge those who are with in our faith, again open your bible and turn off your tv or computer and learn the word!

      • Anonymous

        my6gifts, you seem a little judgmental.

      • Ani

        Betty, there is no Biblical doctrine that supports that “uaually mothers know best.” Only God knows best and if you read your Bible and are a true believer, you know that all kinds of people, including mothers are able to be misled and to be capable of evil. It does say that we are not to be contentious, and we should avoid arguing over it, but it is never wrong to judge right from wrong and to try to warn others of the dangers of following a false teacher.. however it is very wrong to try to add to the misleading information with more of your own. And i cant help but wonder how great your faith really is, if you cant even take the time to put a capital on God.. He is mighty, and your respect for Him (or lack thereof) shows in your words..

      • Dan

        Betty, what are you more concerned about? Your Christian faith and a right understanding which leads to salvation, or things that make you happy inside and inspire you? Do not be fooled! God cannot be mocked. His Word will stand forever, not the words of two people who clearly despise the teachings of our Lord.

      • Anonymous

        I think whenever we get to a point that we close our ears, especially concerning the Gospel because we’re comfortable with what we are hearing…then we risk becoming sheep that just follow.

      • Gina

        I think it’s irresponsible for anyone to say they doubt anyone starved to death for “sharing” their money with ANYONE. You have no idea anyone’s financial situation other than your own. Listen to them all you want but to dismiss someone trying to share their feelings on a subject they evidently have invested a lot of time on only makes you a sheep blindly following these feel-good teachings. Take your head out of the sand says THIS mother.

      • Helena

        I totally agree. I might not agree on everything they teach but because God gave me a brain and discernment I’m able to discern truth from lies. Regardless of what scripture people try to destroy these teachers & pastors they will also be judged by their own words. Most of the scriptures they are using to destroy these ministries are taken out of context! This is the same thing they are saying about what these ministry teach. I’m sure every Christian at one point or another has done this. Yes, maybe out of ignorance or maybe they are baby Christian but never the less these people that preach or teach are also humans who I’m sure make a lot of mistakes. Its called sin! Just like the same sins you and I commit daily. In the eyes of the Lord, sin is sin and there is no differences between theirs and ours. Why not contact these ministries directly and confront them with your concerns and criticisms. Rebuke them if you must but do it in Love as to bring them back to the truth. Again many of the names you have mentioned I honestly dislike their style, their preaching and what they stand for. But not for a moment will I tear them down like the pharisees did because they felt they were holier then thou. Think about what your saying and ask God to search your heart. If you are perfect then stone them, but if there’s just one sin in your life, pray for them, confront them, love them and help them to get back on the right track. All things are possible with God. Rich Henderson, take that big log out of your own eye so that you can see the speck in the rest of the world and instead of investing so much time in trying to convince people that some of these people are false prophets & teachers, invest in loving & leading people to Christ so that they will not be mislead by the true false teachers & prophets. “YOUR NOT THEIR HOLY SPIRIT” I believe God has that under control. I will pray for you!

      • Sherry

        In the Bible there is a story about 2 women. One lost her baby (died), and claimed the other woman’s baby as her own. The two women approached Solomon, I believe, and fought over the baby. Solomon said “Cut the baby in half and give each mom half.” guess what? The lying MOM said “okay”. And you say moms know best???? They are all sinners, just like you and me. Don’t believe what you hear on TV! Open up the WORD OF GOD and read it.

      • Lers

        2 Timothy 4:1-5
        1. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

        ________________

        Do correct, rebuke and encourage false teachers like Joel and Joyce in the presence of God to help those who do not put up with sound doctrine but gather teachers who preach to suit their itching ears.

      • Eric Siverson

        Well I did not get to collect my rent , becuase the prosperity preachers wanted to give them a blessing . This eventualy got them evicted . As i did not want to lose the property .

      • Eric Siverson

        Justice and honesty in buisness dealings is more important to god than gifts . So the grocier and the landlord are supposed to be paid before the preachers blessings or new cloths are purchased . There is somthing true about the prosperity preaching . As people draw closer to God and the 10 commandments they automaticially become better renters , more trustworthy workers , more honest buisness partners , and just generally easier and therefore cheaper and more profitable to deal with . This makes a christian society much more prosperious over long run . much easier to rule and cheaper to police . Just look at Russia they gaveup on communism and Aleksander Solhenitsyen said he wanted Russia to return to her Judo christian roots . Corruption was so bad that democracy could not work .So Russia built a lot more christian Churches . Over the last 20yr Russia has comeup from almost total bankrupcy to now Moscow has more billioneers than any city in the world . Russia’s military strength has increased faster than Germany did in the 1930s , Russia is now called the most Christian country in europe Russia is in a whole lot better finacial shape too . I wonder if a people or a country turns away from God and the ten commandments if maybe they might lose their prosperity .I understand the United States is no longer a Christian country maybe that is why we are 17 trillion dollars in debt . I wonder how much the Soviet Union was in debt before they turned in the towel and decided it would be better to just disband and cancel the debts .

    • Barb

      This Baptist’s girls life was radically changed by the word of God being preached by Joyce Meyer. I was shown through her words how selfish, mean and shallow I was. She became my salt and light and made me hunger to change, become more like Christ. No preacher is perfect. All I know is Joyce preaches the Bible, makes others identify with her shortcomings and gives us hope that we can become more like Christ. Your article has shown me how I shouldn’t judge people as I have done in the past (like Joel Osteen). I would hate for someone to rip apart every preacher in the world and expose their flaws. I am an evangelist and missionary and have problems with the “magical prayer” we evangelicals sometimes teach others to pray that will get them in heaven. (If I focused in on every famous evangelist we could be here a long time and we would run out of preachers because they all are flawed…they are human.) I do know that Joyce is AG and they have a set of beliefs like Jesus went to hell for 3 days, but working with the AG movement for 2 years I realized I had to look at the good they were doing and not throw out the baby with the bath water. If she leads those people in India away from Hinduism and to Christ…PRAISE GOD. I really don’t care if she used a 10 millions dollar jet to get there.

      • Knitted in the Womb

        But what if they are coming to Christ because she promises that faith in God brings prosperity…and when that prosperity doesn’t come, they fall away, embittered toward Christ?

      • Tearis S Moon

        So because you like the message you don’t care if it is an embezzling fraud who blames the disabled for their lot in life who said it? Evil is evil, period.

      • Kathy

        Good reply, Barb. Not a fan of Joel’s only because anytime I’ve watched him, I’m left still hungry. Can’t find Jesus in his message. But Joyce has been a helpful and very encouraging teacher to me, prodding me to not give up but to trust in the Lord.

      • Anonymous

        Well said, Barb! – Sadly,those walking closely with and in the will of God are scrutinized the most!
        RE: Knitted in the Womb – pray for those you are concerned about.
        RE: Tearis S Moon – “embezzling fraud”? Mighty strong accusation, there… For your hardened heart, I will pray.

      • Tim

        Don’t be so quick to make excuses for the wolves in sheep’s clothing that innundate TBN… it doesn’t matter if they “convert” millions of people, if those millions are being taught falsehoods that won’t get them into heaven to start with.

        Remember that sobering warning from Jesus in Matthew 7:22-23, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Now, who do you think that sounds like? Anyone who’s watched TBN knows.

        Just the fact that Joyce Meyer is “preaching” shows her blatant disregard for the Word of God. 1 Timothy 2:12 says “And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.” The context of this passage is speaking about men and women in the church. When confronted with this, Meyer, and other women “preachers,” are quick to quote Galatians 3:28 out of context, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” This passage, of course, is referring to who can be saved – Sons and Heirs according to the promise.

        Since the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, perfect will of God, any apparent contradiction in two such passages as these must be due to human error in interpretation. In Meyer’s case, taking the scripture totally out of context to fit her desire. That’s not an accident on her part, it’s not a shortcoming or an error — it’s deliberate. And you know what the Bible says about adding to, or taking away from it…

        Use that good mind God gave you and sort through these things. Let’s be good Bereans and check the Bible to see if these TV preachers are of God. We are commanded to. And that goes for what I’ve said too… you check me out. I tell you one thing… you won’t hear any of the WOF preachers invite you to do THAT! It’s because they know that what they teach isn’t in there. They always have to say things like, “Well, that might not be in the Bible, but God told me that directly.” How convenient. Get out your checkbooks.

      • Dan

        God’s plan for salvation can even work through a false prophet, but you need to move past that at some point and begin to eat solid food. You say Meyer preaches the Bible, but NO she doesn’t (she’s a female pastor, which the Bible pretty clearly says no to…that should tell you something). Open your Bible and read it and trust Christ, not the words of men (or women). Don’t allow the devil to fool you like this. Don’t be like Eve who brought the whole world into sin, or Adam who went along with it.

      • Rene

        Joyce is a great motivational speaker

      • Teresa

        Touch NOT mine anointed and do my prophets NO HARM! You may not agree with them but that doesn’t make them wrong! The whole principal is OBEDIENCE that God will reward in this life! The Bible says that the power of life and death is in the tongue! You CAN speak positive and healing things into your life. I have done it myself! And if it doesn’t happen then it was either not Gods timing or not His will for my life !

      • Jaime

        I keep seeing comments like yours about “not touching God’s anointed”.

        Are they God’s anointed if they are teaching a false gospel and false doctrine? False prophets and teachers are not God’s anointed. Also, we are to test the spirits AND judge our own (Christians). We are not judging their eternal destination, because we don’t know if they will repent or not, but we can judge their fruit and doctrines to determine if they are truly saved or not; if they are truly God’s anointed or not.

        1 Corinthians 5:12-13
        For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

        PURGE THE EVIL PERSON FROM AMONG YOU.

        That means that the evil person is AMONG them. He says to get rid of them. So to say that we can’t “touch” God’s anointed doesn’t apply because an evil person/false teacher/false prophet is NOT God’s anointed. These false teachers/prophets are AMONG us. That is why we must judge our own and make sure that everyone among us truly belongs to God. We do this by watching what they say and do. It is quite evident by watching and listening to Joel and Joyce that they are teaching a false gospel and other false teachings.

      • Damon Whitsell

        HI Jaime,

        These people take a verse and make a thought terminating cliche out of it. They say things like “they are anointed from God and if they where not God would stop them and they would not be so popular” and “eat the meat and spit out the bones”. They really don’t care that King David said those words and why he said them. But the fact remains that David spoke those words because his father Solomon tried to have him killed and in response rather reciprocate David said “touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm”. It is really sad how these people are controlled by such thought terminating devices.

      • Jaime

        Yes it is Damon, thank you. We must pray for Christians to open their eyes to the false teachers, especially in these last days.

      • Joe

        I support this statement.

      • Gina

        It would probably better serve you even more if you put your faith of God’s word in God rather than man (or woman in this case). What drew me to God was listening to Christian music but I sure didn’t grow in my walk but that. It took me seeking to know more about God and His word. And part of His word will teach you about false teachers and prophets.

      • Nikki

        If Joyce is so amazing, such a great preacher, yada yada yada… why oh WHY can she and Mr. Osteen just preach STRAIGHT out of the bible??? Why paraphrase everything? They are preachers, supposed to share God’s word, why embellish, why share stories, why… God wrote it word for word how He saw fit, He did not say “hey add what you feel best”, NO He wrote exactly what He wanted us to know, read and live. It is so simple, Read your bible, listen to anyone, check it against God’s word and if it does not match it is NOT TRUTH!!! You can argue til the cows come home, you get a bible and check for your self. The gospel is the gospel, you can not add, change or make it something else otherwise it is NOT the gospel of Jesus…Period! There is no need to be offended, no need to defend.. check in the scriptures what God has to say. I am thankful for this article, because whether you agree or not hopefully you are getting into the word yourself and finding the truth. Either way in the end, it will be terrible sad to see so many that were deceived and fooled, those are who we need to reach and pray for. God and His glory WILL prevail and the Truth will always set free…

      • Adam

        The Devil can preach straight out of the bible. Just because you’re quoting doesn’t mean you’re quoting what God intended. THE DEVIL quoted scripture to Jesus to tempt him. And he misused it, and Jesus corrected him with other scripture rightly dividing it(judging in once sense of the word). What we aren’t to do is to condemn other people hypocritically. “Judge not lest ye be judged” is entirely in the context of not judging others when you have glaring sinful practices. So get yourself right, so you can help correct others that may not see it is really the meaning. Judge righteous judgement.

      • Helena

        I totally agree with you Barb, Its funny that people don’t criticize the celebrities or sportsman that make millions & millions of dollars and how they travel to take entertainment to the world and yes even Christians that watch them! I visited the headquarters at Joyce Meyers Ministries and they gave me a print out of all their expenses and what goes to charities & missions all over the world. And yes its very impressive. While some people are wasting their time calling out these “false prophets & teachers!” the world is going to hell because they are more concern about being right than reaching people to Christ and building His Kingdom in Heaven. We are not the people’s Holy Spirit! We are messengers, priesthood that have been given forgiveness & Grace to lead others to Christ and that should be our focus! Instead of the criticism people should be praying for them & Hollywood too. We should all be in our knees for the lost and our brothers & sisters in Christ and yes, also the false prophets & teachers. Jesus die for the world not just for a few. I’ll be praying for Rich Henderson that God will search his heart and give him the same compassion and Grace God bestowed on him. Thank you Barb for your wonderful & inspiring comments. May God always Bless you.

      • Debbie

        Praise the Lord and totally agree with you Barb!!! The body of Christ has too many “casting stones”! I’m sure I would not completely agree with many other’s doctrines!! Jesus said, “your traditions and doctrines have made the word of God of non-effect.” Too many “doctrines” and “traditions” of men and not enough of Christ!!

      • Damon Whitsell

        2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

      • Jeff Hensley

        If you spent time in Africa like I have and had seen the damage her teachings does to people over there, you’d feel differently about her and her damnable 10 million dollar jet. I promise you this. On that day before God, you don’t wanna be standing too close to Joyce Meyers

      • Steven Kay

        Dan: you said “(she’s a female pastor, which the Bible pretty clearly says no to…that should tell you something).”

        Can you, or anyone, tell me where in the Bible it says this?, and I mean in the New Testament, don’t be quoting me Leviticus or anything as Jesus did away with all of that. Unless you still practice that, in which I will have to wait for you to reply after you sacrifice your daily boar or goat offering.

    • Barb

      It is so funny that you used John Piper to discredit Joyce Meyer. His heresy is well-known. You might want to check out your sources. Bottom line…EVERYONE is flawed. When we begin judging other preachers we need to look in the book of James about being held to a greater accountability. When we who have a platform judge others with a telescope, people will use a microscope on us!!

      • Barb

        Apparently you have never listened to JM. I have listened to her for over 10 years. She does not promote prosperity gospel. She preaches hard work and not depending on others for your needs. Repeat… she does not promote prosperity….please listen to her. BTW I love the “knitted in the womb.” I have worked 20 years in the pro-life movement:)

      • Tearis S Moon

        Anyone who says the Bible does not say what she preaches is not just a false profit but incredibly dangerous. They are about themselves not God. If a message is truly from God the Bible will back it up.

      • Tim

        Tearis… there’s one important difference you overlooked. You can’t quote the Bible OUT OF CONTEXT. Meyer does that all the time. In fact, most WOF preachers love taking scripture out of context, to support their warped doctrine. That’s how they come up with such abominations like “seed faith.” (In reality, the “seed” referred to in scripture is the Word – not money.)

        Since most people are too lazy to do the homework, they’re content to just believe whatever a preacher says. They come to church for the show; to make themselves feel good, and place their soul’s salvation in the hands of someone who, many times, has not even studied the Bible (Joel Osteen has admitted this, as did Jim Bakker, although Bakker did seek to remedy that).

        Think about it: what better way for Satan to mislead millions than to use a little bit of scripture, a flashy presentation, and a whole lot of falsehood. It’s truly the wolves in sheep’s clothing. I’m not saying Meyer and Osteen are consciously trying to mislead people – they may be very sincere – but they are sincerely wrong.

      • Shawn

        @Barb’s August 10th post at 5:46 AM.

        “In letters that were made public on Tuesday, Grassley told Kenneth and Gloria Copeland; David and Joyce Meyer; Randy and Paula White; Creflo and Taffi Dollar; Eddie Long; and Benny Hinn that they have four weeks to send him a boatload of paperwork to prove they are in compliance with U.S. tax laws…”

        “Information from Bible teacher Joyce Meyer about expensive furnishings in her Missouri headquarters—including a $30,000 malachite table, a $23,000 commode with a marble top and a $19,000 pair of Dresden vases.”

        http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20627&forum=35&9

        Seems to me that, judging by the fruit, there does seem to be some belief in a “prosperity gospel.” Contrast this with how Mother Teresa lived. Anyway, food for thought.

      • Anonymous

        the fuck is wrong with you guys are fucking sick did you not think I could figure this out that you coif trash me all day on here and feel good about and you been l doing it moor Regen what you have said lies just don’t stop and yes I do fucking drugs but I quit that shit 3 weeks after heather left

    • voiceofthetruth

      The bible is the reason joyce meyers says what she says, shes just another so called preacher with a different interpretation like the rest of the thousand churches.and denominations in this world. The spirit never spoke to her she never walked with Jesus she just reads a book (bible) and finds a meaning to suit her best and people who dont have the spirit follow her and other pastors.

    • Wayne

      Heaven. Streets of gold. Everlasting life. Isn’t that all “prosperity” doctrine at its core?

    • bjytes

      Has anyone listened to the entire message or just the excerpts on this website?

    • Rachel

      Dealing With Sin in the Church
      15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
      18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.
      19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

    • Brenda Murray

      Have you done any research on Joyce Meyer Ministries? They are certainly making a positive difference all around the world. Not only are they responsible for bringing thousands of people to Christ, but they support numerous programs that bring hope to those in need. JMM’s has partnered in establishing housing for orphans and for young women whom they’ve helped rescue from the sex trade. They help to meet the medical, dental & nutritional needs of those not only in developing countries, but also in Europe & the US. JMM’s ‘Mission of Hope’ was on site aiding in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina & other natural disasters right up to and including Jersey. It saddens me to hear people refer to Joyce as a ‘Prosperity Preacher”, It would appear that they’re not really understanding her message. We are meant to be “givers”. To love thy neighbor includes helping them when they are need, be it physical, emotional or financial. Like any other organization, a portion of the money goes toward administration, but the “lion’s share” is donated to specific worthwhile & world-wide programs. One post I read mentioned the fact that it was obvious that Joyce had gotten a face lift! Really, so what!! Is Joyce not entitled to treat herself to the odd ‘luxury’ simply because she’s a preacher? Amazingly, Joyce is 70 years old and I think she looks fabulous. She is constantly on the road doing one seminar after another, and between those grueling hours she can be found in places like the Philippines, preaching the Gospel AND providing aid. Not only has she written several excellent books, she has also produced many CD’s & DVD’s with accompanying study books. Aside from preaching at her seminars, it must take her hours to prepare each time. Note the number of Scriptures she incorporates into each seminar. Joyce works harder both physically and emotionally than a lot of 30 year old women & has dedicated her entire life to helping others in a multitude of ways. Yet someone feels the need to condemn her for having some work done to her face! Really? This writer is basing it on the fact that she “looks” like she’s had work done. Like anyone else, Joyce works and thus should be paid. The Lord expects us to take care of our teachers. What one does with their own personal income should not concern anyone else. I’ve only been viewing the various televangelists over the past year, primarily to help me with ‘discernment’. I indeed see some pretty shady characters out there. When someone tells me that if I pay them money for some type of water they’re sending me, & that I can expect thousands of dollars for doing so, I see a pretty big ‘red flag’. As children of poor, uneducated or especially demented parents, it is OUR responsibility to ensure these loved ones are not being taken in by some of these so-called Preachers. However if they are cognitively intact, & they insist on giving money to a particular cause, then we can’t lay sole blame on the solicitors. Furthermore, when it comes to giving, one only needs to refer back to the Scriptures and the expectations of our Lord and Savior. However if you think a family member is being financially abused, then get involved to help remedy the situation. There is a difference, however, between the evangelist who infers that money will buy them a seat in The Kingdom, and Joyce Meyer who uses donations toward “Loving Thy Neighbor”. At the end of each program we are offered resources either by a donation of a ‘particular’ amount, ‘any’ amount, or ‘free’. FYI: In Canada there is no tax or shipping/handling fees on these resources so it is actually cheaper to by them directly off the TV as opposed to the Bookstore! Joyce also does a quick blurb at the end of her show re: the benefits of becoming a Partner. Simple. No monetary pressure at all. We can still get to heaven if we don’t donate! Lastly to refer to her as a Prosperity Preacher is false. LISTEN to her messages. I’ve yet to hear about getting 10 times my money back, & Joyce will always be able to quote a Scripture when she discusses abundance. I encourage you to read and re-read the correlating Scriptures, especially where they pertain to “Harvest” & “Reaping what we sow”. Joyce is a Blessing. God has done incredibly wonderful things through her and her Ministry. And if you pay attention you’ll note that she NEVER takes the credit for anything, but instead gives it ALL to God…EVERY TIME. And when discussing other Ministries or other Preachers, Joyce NEVER judges anyone else & warns us about doing so. Joyce did not bring her Ministry to this level herself, nor with the help of their family. Clearly God has Blessed this Ministry & caused it to soar for HIS GLORY. Therefore we must steer away from judgements and criticisms,

    • Beverley

      You know I disagree with you, Jesus when healing people always referred back to their faith. Remember also He said ” Whoever says to this mountain move and be thrown into the sea without disbelief it will happen. So, what is wrong with Joel if he emphasises the importance of speaking to the situation and unwavering faith? In proverbs, ” One shall eat the fruits of his tongue, so forgive me my brothers and sisters if it seems to be too artificial for us to make our declarations loud and open because I have seen it work in my life. If Joel and others are deceiving us, then I would rather be deceived, declare and believe God for those things. If they do not come to pass, I know all things work out for my good…

    • StevePage

      All I know is the Holy Spirit use Joel Osteen to call me out of a life of depravity. He reminded me that God loves me and that I need to take a look around me and see all the awesome things the Lord has done.

    • Amy

      Wow, You may want up James 3:13-18, then 1 Chronicles 16:22. Strife and discord are straight from the devil, and I would guess that
      GOD is less than pleased with the amount of time His children spend
      Fighting with and accusing each other. We will all give an account to
      God for the way we walked our christian walk, we will be held accountable for every gift God has given us, both natural and spiritual.

    • Wayne

      The Bible tells us to Test ALL things. Hold fast to that which is good.http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/judge_not.htm

  • Todd Hopkins

    I luckily have been studying the Bible for years and like you find these two and others offensive. I hope to be by the Lords side when these Nd others arrive. I can almost picture The Lord shaking His head S he motions them over. It is better for them not to be born the. To cause a child of God to fall

  • Joseph Keller

    If you are a reformed theology guy, then I could call you on the carpet for many twisted teachings as well! Where does it say that after we are saved, that we are STILL sinners? Does it not say that we are Saints? Are we not “new creations”; the “workmanship” of God? Are we not “born-again”? So what do you teach on this? Because if you still believe that we are sinners because we sin, then I would ask you: Did not Jesus’ blood wash your sins away, as far as the east is from the west? Did He not die for ALL your sins, past, present and future? So that being said, is there not a difference between when we were dead in sin and now that we are dead TO sin and alive in Christ; now that Jesus is standing up for us as our advocate? Calling someone out is one thing but can you deal with other’s calling you out?

    I agree whole-heartedly that there is nothing good in the Prosperity Gospel and those that name it and claim it and run around “healing” everyone with the help of “big brother, Jesus”! Just like Piper said, I too HATE the prosperity gospel. So calling them out is good and admirable. However, saying that Jesus did not die for ALL sin, that He picks those who go to heaven and allows the rest to go to hell; that He calls and we cannot reject such a calling; and saying that accepting the call is the same as work is all heretical just as much as the prosperity gospel . . .

    • BRAD RICHERZHAGEN

      All do respect the Bible says for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The key word is ALL.

      • carel albertyn

        Brad that is in Romans 3, as Paul is explaining that all man are in need of an Savior and that non of our works are able to save us. And yes all man have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and therefore are in need of a saviour, but as we come to our Savior and put our faith in Him, we become new creations(2Cor.5: 17). As Paul continues in Romans he explains the implication of this faith on the believer. In Romans 5: 19 it says that through the disobedience of one man many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous” All man are born in sin and therefore sinners, but as we are united in Christ the old adam -nature (sin) are being dealt with and we are raised up as new creations. no longer sinners, but sons. So through the work of the cross God can bring many sons to glory, and that Him who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all one. (heb. 2: 9,10)
        I agree fully with Joseph, that believers are never referred to as sinners, but saints and sons of God.

      • Brandon Smith (@JazGalaxy)

        This is why I love God, but hate “theology”. People set up camps around one verse or another and then argue with people who have set up camp around a separate verse. The bible intimates that we are constantly sinners and we are constantly in need of salvation to drive home the point that we can’t be saved and then forget all about God. “Fire Insurance” as some pastors would put it. But the bible also states that we are saints and not sinners because it’s trying to reinforce the point that Jesus pays for ALL of your sin and your debt has been wiped clean. We are both sinners AND saints. We are convicted and pardoned at the same time. Is it hard to understand? Absolutely. But it’s Schrodinger’s Cat, at this point. Until we go to heaven or Jesus returns, we are both alive and dead.

      • Andre Roberts

        I felt it was time to address this topic. Many topics elicit an emotional response when you disagree with someone that has been indoctrinated into a certain belief regardless of whether their belief is actually truth supported by scripture or not. I have witnessed believers often referring to themselves as a “sinner” or by the extended text of “sinner saved by grace”. Are these terms actually scripturally supported terms to refer to a believer in Jesus Christ?

        You may wonder, “Why is it a big deal what believers call themselves or other believers?”, but if it is not important, then why would God have inspired the scripture writers to call His children specific words? Obviously God has a huge interest in the terms His children refer to themselves as. Just as you would care about what your kids call themselves, God cares deeply about what His children call themselves. If your children are constantly calling themselves or others “stupid”, “loser”, “idiot”, “useless”, and other words like that, you would have an active interest in guiding them to change their perspective of themselves and others. That is the catalyst for me writing this, to help believers change their perspective of themselves from a negative to a positive.

        So let us begin and where better to start than with that word “sinner”. Did you ever wonder how many times the term “sinner” and “sinners” is used in the NT? I did. So, I researched it and I will list them all below. I will use the King James Version. This will include the usage before and after Jesus went to the cross for all of us.

        “Sinner”

        Luke 7:37 KJV And, behold , a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

        Luke 7:39 KJV Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying , This man, if he were a prophet , would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

        Luke 15:7 KJV I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth , more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

        Luke 15:10 KJV Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

        Luke 18:13 KJV And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying , God be merciful to me a sinner.

        Luke 19:7 KJV And when they saw it, they all murmured , saying , That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

        John 9:16 KJV Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said , How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

        John 9:24 KJV Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.

        John 9:25 KJV He answered and said , Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know , that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

        Romans 3:7 KJV For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

        James 5:20 KJV Let him know , that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

        1 Peter 4:18 KJV And if the righteous scarcely be saved , where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear ?

        “Sinners”

        Matthew 9:10 KJV And it came to pass , as Jesus sat at meat in the house , behold , many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

        Matthew 9:11 KJV And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

        Matthew 9:13 KJV But go ye and learn what that meaneth , I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

        Matthew 11:19 KJV The Son of man came eating and drinking , and they say , Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

        Matthew 26:45 KJV Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest : behold , the hour is at hand , and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

        Mark 2:15 KJV And it came to pass , that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

        Mark 2:16 KJV And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

        Mark 2:17 KJV When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

        Mark 14:41 KJV And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest : it is enough , the hour is come ; behold , the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

        Luke 5:30 KJV But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying , Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

        Luke 5:32 KJV I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

        Luke 6:32 KJV For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

        Luke 6:33 KJV And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

        Luke 6:34 KJV And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive , what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again .

        Luke 7:34 KJV The Son of man is come eating and drinking ; and ye say , Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

        Luke 13:2 KJV And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

        Luke 13:4 KJV Or those eighteen , upon whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

        Luke 15:1 KJV Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

        Luke 15:2 KJV And the Pharisees and scribes murmured , saying , This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

        John 9:31 KJV Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

        Romans 5:8 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

        Romans 5:19 KJV For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

        Galatians 2:15 KJV We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

        Galatians 2:17 KJV But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid .

        1 Timothy 1:9 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

        1 Timothy 1:15 KJV This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

        Hebrews 7:26 KJV For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

        Hebrews 12:3 KJV For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

        James 4:8 KJV Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

        Jude 1:15 KJV To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed , and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

        Each and every usage of the word “sinner” or “sinners” is used towards people before they come to a saving knowledge of Christ. You may be thinking “Hold on, you are missing one!”, but I’m not. Yes, you could say there is one instance where it appears to be used towards a believer, this would be Paul’s usage in 1 Timothy 1:15, but if we actually look at this verse in context we can clearly see Paul is actually speaking of his past. Bible scholars have made this same truthful conclusion for centuries.

        Now I am not saying that you will never commit a sin. You must allow Christ in you and the Holy Spirit to work and one day you will reach a place of no wrong doing in any way in the natural realm as well as supernatural, but it most likely will be when Jesus calls you home. You must always remember however your position and place of favor as a member of His Body. As a believer doing sin and being sin are two different things. A believer may commit a sin, but a believer is not a “sinner”.

        You may not agree with the fact that you are no longer a “sinner”, you may have been taught different, you may want to argue with me, but I am not the one who originally made this claim. God makes this claim about you, that you are not a “sinner”, in His word. So who do you think is actually right about who you are? God or your favorite teacher or pastor?

        Which leads us to now to a wonderful revelation into what God actually chooses to call His children in scripture.

        I did a lot of work already so now it’s your time to get into the word and look up for yourself what believers are referred as. It has been scripturally established that believers are not called “sinner” or “sinners”, but I just can’t leave you completely hanging. I just can’t help myself but to share a few with you. It’s so exciting to know who you really are, so I can’t hold back.

        Believer, body, brethren, bride, brother, called, children of God, chosen, chosen generation, church, disciple, faithful, heir of righteousness, holy nation, justified, light, peculiar people, righteous, royal priesthood, saints, salt, did I just go ahead and list them all? Can you find any more? If you do leave them in a comment below.

        God bless, and I hope now you will stop calling yourself a “sinner” which is no better than calling yourself, a child of God, “loser”, “ugly” or “worthless” and start calling yourself “beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” And “Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me to greet you.”

      • J Tango

        Amazing the dance that is taking place around the word sinner.. If I lie, I’m a liar. If I steal, I’m a thief.. If I sin, however, though under God’s Grace and forgiveness, I am not any longer a sinner?!.. But I still sin.. So I am now a sinning saint? Preposterous! We are a new creations yes, we are now saints, we are His children, His inheritance, His…. the list goes on and on. But to split theological hairs and say we are no longer sinners, but saints who still sin? Please..

        To the attack on reformed theology… John Calvin was no heretic, and though I disagree with 2 of the main points in TULIP, which were pulled together by his followers after his death by the way, I would be wrong to call Him a heretic as is anyone else.. He believed in Christ and Christ alone.. His explanation of the gospel is indeed a biblical stance. People just love to hate Calvin and the reformers because of their stance on election, WHICH COMES FROM THE BIBLE!!! Anyone who refutes election, refutes Paul, refutes God. I’ve talked with some who just flat out deny that God has predestined and elected some and not all. They need to read their bibles.. Just because we cant understand how the Sovereignty of God and the Free will of man work in tandem, we either cling to what just makes sense for our feeble finite minds, or we arrogantly claim to grasp such a concept as God’s sovereign election. Humility would serve us well in this argument.

        We are made Saints by God’s Grace and Christ’s imputed righteousness, not by whether we are sinners or not. We Sin, we are thus sinners, still.

        Election is a real doctrine, it’s in your bible..

        Grace and Peace All.

      • reformedmatt

        Andre, Carel, and others on the anti-Reformed “we are not sinners” crusade; in 1 Tim. 1:15 Paul definitely refers to himself as a sinner. In his statement “of whom I am chief” the Greek “eimi” translated correctly as “am” is a first person, indicative, present tense verb. There is no doubt that Paul is stating as a fact that he is, at the time of writing Timothy, a sinner. Vague references to “Bible scholars” coming to a different conclusion based on some supposed context that is left unexplained doesn’t change the fact that the Greek word in the text is present tense not past. There goes the whole “we shouldn’t call ourselves sinners because Christians are not ever referred to as sinners in the New Testament” argument.

        Even if Paul didn’t clearly refer to himself as a sinner after his conversion, your abuse of the English is as bad as your abuse of the Greek. You are claiming that we sin but are not sinners. If “sinner” is not a word that properly defines someone who sins, then we might as well quit all discussion because words have no meaning to you.

        You may also want to notice that your entire argument against believers being sinners is nothing more than an argument from silence, which isn’t a very compelling argument at all. The word “Trinity” isn’t found in scripture. Does that mean that we shouldn’t use it to refer to the Godhead? If Jesus refers to Himself as “The Son of Man” does that logically eliminate the possibility of Him being divine? If not, then why would references to Christians being “new creations”, “saints”, “believers”, “God’s elect”, etc. eliminate the possibility of Christians being correctly called sinners also? In fact, as I pointed out, the word “sinner” means someone who sins, and we all still sin. What you are doing is making a moral judgment that is found nowhere in the Bible (that it is wrong to refer to ourselves as sinners after conversion). Actually the fact that you are making up new sins shouldn’t have to be pointed out, because you are building an argument from silence where Paul was clearly not silent.

        Proponents of the prosperity gospel should be called out as false teachers, because they are preaching a different gospel. I don’t understand why this article was hijacked by people looking to attack Christians who are Reformed. By the way, there are many non-Reformed Christians who refer to themselves as sinners also.

      • Ellen Hicks

        Amen we re all sinners and fall short to the glory of GOD by his GRACE we are FORGIVEN>

    • Tim Altmix

      It is indeed amazing the number of believers who still think they had a choice in their salvation.

      • Bruce Chowning

        If we choose to believe….we have made a choice. Yes I chose to be saved. I didn’t save myself…I chose to surrender to myself and accept the salvation Jesus offered to me. You may quote “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up” John 6:44 This is a great passage that proves my point. You will focus on the Father who draws him. I will focus on the word COME. No one comes…..that’s choice. Unless the Father draws him….that’s love. Who is drawn by God to become saved? Everyone. Is everyone saved? No. Some choose to reject God’s love for them. Yes, I chose the One who chose me first.

      • carel albertyn

        Hi guys.I think the big thing is whether we are defined by what we do, or who we are. As much as a dog doesn’t become a dog because he barks, but barking is just an expression of who he is. And on the other hand a human that barks, can’t become a dog, the man is just acting contrary to who he is.
        Paul in most of his epistles, first want to settle the truth of who we are. Eph4.1 then encourage us to walk worthy of who we are. A large part of the christian walk start with a knowing of who we are in Christ Rom. 6. 1-6.and with that confidence and understanding we can walkout who we are.
        Positional in Christ, we are complete (col.2:9), but it is a journey to act and walk according to who we are.

        We also need to distinguish between sins as wrong actions, and SIN as a power that operates in all unsaved men. Paul teaches us that that power has been dealt with,(Rom.6) the source of that that cause man to be sinners, has died with Christ on the cross, so that we can life in the newness of His Spirit.

      • Anonymous

        Hahahaha. Oh wait your serious? Ok now I’m just sad:(

      • Anonymous

        Have you ever read the bible where it tells us to choose. You should check it out

    • Greg

      In Romans 7, Paul talks about his struggle with his flesh. “The things I don’t want to do, I do. The things I want to do, I don’t do…” In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul talks about his “thorn in the flesh” and his need for the sufficiency of Jesus to overcome his struggle with the flesh. So, if you no longer sin as a follower of Jesus, you are greater than the apostle Paul who wrote a lot of the New Testament. Sounds more like spiritual pride, pharisaical…

      • Anonymous

        Well said

      • Anonymous

        Thank you for that wisdom.

      • carel albertyn

        Hi Greg, I am not saying that I or any believer is not sinning, I am saying that sinning or my actions is not firstly defining who I am, but rather my position in Christ. Our encouragement is to know one another according to the Spirit and not the flesh. With that I am also not saying that we must ignore the sins in believer’s lives, and make if it is not there.
        You have to continue with Romans 7 and see Paul’s concluion in Chapter 8: 2 , where he says the law of the Spirit and life has set him free from the law of sin and death. The whole of chapter 7 is dealing with the power of the law and how that he concludes that he is free from it’s hold and power.
        In 2Corinthains 12, I agree fully that Paul came to understand the grace of Christ is sufficient and that is my point that we have to consider the sufficiency that is provided for us in Christ.

    • Josh

      Amen! In Christ we are new creations! Yes, we still sin because we have unredeemed flesh, but we are new creatures with new identities. Sinning doesn’t make you a sinner, being in Adam is what makes you a sinner. Once you are in Christ, you are a new creation. To say otherwise is to undermine the regenerative role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the elect. It is unfortunate that false teachers get this doctrine right because it casts doubt on it.

    • Robin Self

      Well of COURSE we are still sinners after we are saved. Our sins are atoned for and covered, but we do not lose our sinful nature. If you have never sinned after being saved then congratulations, you are the first. We are sinners, but we are “saved” sinners. Sure we are a new creation, because our spirit has been renewed. But our flesh has not. It is still a constant battle we fight.

      • Elada

        Our sins have not been atoned for and covered. That was what happened with the Old Testament sacrifices. Our sins have been removed completely! Now, I am not saying that we do not sin because our flesh is still under the curse of sin, but Paul differentiated between his inward man and his sinful flesh, the flesh he would one day be rid of, saying “it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” (Romans 7:20) We (as identified by Paul as the inward man, the being that will live forever) are now 100% untouched by the sinfulness of our flesh, and nowhere in the Bible are we ever identified as “sinners”.

      • madeofwater

        Romans 5:19
        For if by one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the ABUNDANCE OF GRACE and GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS will reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.

        What this says is that we are sinners because of Adam’s sin (because we are all his descendants), not because we sin. By the same token, we are made righteous in the new covenant; not because we do righteous deeds but because of Jesus’ obedience on the cross. This is what the word of God says. Let everyone draw their comments from the bible, not from their understanding of it, or even from their opinions.

        Note: Righteousness is a gift. We do not earn it when/if we cease to sin. We are now called righteous, not because we no longer sin, or because we now do righteous deeds (this bares repeating). It is because by virtue of receiving Christ, we RECEIVE righteousness as well.

      • Marixi

        Semantics… we sin therefore we are sinners. To say someone sins but is not a sinner is ludicrous. The only difference between a saved person sinning and an unsaved person sinning is that the Holy Spirit dwells inside the saved person. Therefore the saved person has the Grace and Mercy of God’s forgiveness extended to them and they now hate their sin. A person doesn’t become saved and then BAM no longer sin. That’s a dirty lie that separates people from God when they can’t live up to that expectation AND because of that expectation people that are unbelievers judge Christians that sin which turns them away from God even more because the Christian, in their eyes, should be free from sin. To a non-believer it makes God look bad and their chances of being saved are diminished.

      • triplejaymom

        Thank you your common sense comment! Certainly we are made righteous in God’s sight because we are covered by the blood of Christ. But being born again does not make one sinless. That is an asinine statement. Some of these comments are ridiculous. Yes, one who sins is a SIN-ner, just as one who teaches is a TEACH-er… Even Paul asked, Why do I do the things I don’t want to do, and not do the things I want to do. And what about scripture that tells you how to rebuke a brother who is caught in sin? Do you just negate all the rest of scripture because it doesn’t fit with Joyce Meyers’ flawed philosophy? Thank you or your comment Marixi! :)

      • carel albertyn

        Robin sinfull nature is not a term that is in the bible (The NIV wrongly translate flesh as sinfull nature). Paul use the word sin, in Romans 6, as a power and he is very clear that it is dealt with and died on the cross. We are free from that power
        The flesh is still a reality, but Paul’s definition of flesh is really in it’s essence independent man, or human ability, the encouragement is to rely on the Spirit, and live from Him as our source.
        To be honest I really don’t know what Joyce Meyer is teaching, and so I can’t defend or saying anything against what she stands for.

      • Rene

        And once we are saved….we sin. The beauty of it, we can repent, and if we are Godly sorry,it will be wiped away….the sin gone…Ain’t God good……singing….” I’m glad I know youuuuuuuuu”

    • Christine First

      Amen Joseph! I totally agree!

    • Alex

      If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10 ESV

      • Paul Rustine

        Written to brothers and believers. These verses are not for the unsaved. John had it right. We are both sinners and saints. Present tense.

    • Jim

      Brandon, to the Word of God, not the word of man.

      Romans 7
      So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

      So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin.

      1 John 1
      This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

      If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

    • Anonymous

      Amen, I agree. Thank you for the so much needed reminder. Although I read this article with an open mind as I do like both of these preachers, but not really a follower of either. I was was willing to hear the article, cannot comment on either preacher as like I said not a follower of them, but certainly a lover of Jesus. I always take the word, scripture over any other personal comment said, so as long as others do the same, they can never stray. Stay in the Word.

    • terriergal

      “If you are a reformed theology guy, then I could call you on the carpet for many twisted teachings as well! ”

      Yeah, well, get in line, people are doing that all the time anyway. (Dave Hunt, Norm Geisler, Ergun (the liar) Caner and plenty of his SBC buddies trashing their monergistic brethren in the SBC just to name a few.)

      “Where does it say that after we are saved, that we are STILL sinners? Does it not say that we are Saints?”

      It says we are both. Next question?

      Seriously. Scripture talks about sinners in two different ways. Those who are known by society as blatant sinners, so, the societal or civil description of lawbreakers, and the theological way, as in, everyone who commits sin.

      That’s why Christians still need the gospel, why we don’t need Jesus less and less every day, but are really made more and more aware of our need for him every day, even as we may have more success in leaving blatant sins and temptations behind.

    • terriergal

      “Where does it say that after we are saved, that we are STILL sinners?”

      1 John 1:8-9 ” If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

      Romans 7:14-25 “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

      So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”

      “Because if you still believe that we are sinners because we sin, then I would ask you: Did not Jesus’ blood wash your sins away, as far as the east is from the west? Did He not die for ALL your sins, past, present and future?”

      You seem to think that because we say we are still sinners, that somehow means Christ didn’t die for our sins, past, present, and future. The one doesn’t follow from the other.

      1 Timothy 1:15 “The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I *am* (not WAS) the foremost.”

    • christian

      1 John 1:8 for example , or 1 John 2:1

    • Tearis S Moon

      All mankind is a sinner, yes we are saints, but we still are not perfect, nor will we be till we are in our heavenly forms. The absolute preaching keeps people from God, and blames those in trouble or need for their lot in life. It’s the prosperity preaching that tell people that if they are poor, disabled, weak, sick, depressed, violated, raped…. if something happens to them it is the effect of their sin. It is the movement that drives the most people in need away when the promises don’t match the self driven hype.

    • Anonymous

      So are you saying that because we are new creations we don’t sin? What about Paul denying Christ three times, was that not sin? We are still sinners alright, but because of the blood we recognize that and are forgiven. I believe once saved always saved but to say to true believers sin. I think you’ll find plenty of examples to the contrary.

    • Anonymous

      I am not a theologian but apostle Paul talked about running the good race and to run as to win the prize. That also means that when we become Christians, we are given new spiritual lives, but that we have to keep “taking up our cross daily”. I think that Paul means that we have to daily crucify our natural strong desires and instead choose to do it God’s way. That implies to me that we are not yet perfect and still sin. But we can have daily victory over sin and even go from victory to victory. We need to work out our salvation every day because becoming a Christian just put us on the race track, not at the end destination.

    • NJ Gruner

      1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil
      Romans 6:1-2 …Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
      Matt 7:23 depart from me ye that work iniquity
      Mark 9:43-47 (paraphrase here) If a part of you causes you to sin, cut it off so you don’t go to hell.
      Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
      2Tim 2:19b And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
      John 8:11b …Go and sin no more.
      John 5:14b …sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
      1 Cor 15;34 Awake to righteousness and sin not.
      John 8:34-36 Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin…if the son shall make you free you shall be free indeed. (Free from serving sin)
      Although written in the present tense Romans 7 gives Pauls experience under the law but his experience under grace is in his own testimony
      1 Thes 2:10-12
      Acts 23:1
      Acts 24:16
      He was chief sinner because he persecuted Christs church. But then he was saved from sin. If he were still the chief sinner after that, what was his sin?
      Yes all have sinned, but when you give yourself to God, every day you have a choice to sin or not to sin and you can always choose to not sin.

  • Anonymous

    Sola Gratia

    it is that simple…Osteen especially, is in my prayers. I pray for a radical transformation. His power and influence over people is devastating and a miracle through God the Father is needed for Joel.

  • jeff krugle

    it saddens me that you can say such things, you are to show GODS lite at all times, through GOD all things are possible, true faith can allow you to never worry and always show GODS lite and not worry about some1 shining brighter. you should apologize to JOEL and JOYCE, you can never know if GOD speaks to them only GOD can, your words are those of jealousy

    • Anonymous

      According to your logic, Jeff, Jesus should apologize to the Pharisees.

    • Les

      Oh how Naive Jeff, so God ‘speaks’ to some and not to others? They are like a filter and can pass this ‘new’ revelation on? And what of the warning in the Bible, not to add anything or take anything away from the scriptures. Read the Bible for yourself and re-read this excellent article. Being ‘nice’ people does not mean that they are truthful, nor for that matter even saved.
      And Jeff, we are not at all questioning God’s power or authority here. that is unquestionable. People posing as his mouth piece are being questioned.

    • triplejaymom

      Jeff, you most definitely can know if it is of God if it contradicts scripture! This line of thinking from people that we can never question what one says is from God is really annoying.

    • DesigningLife

      Mr. Krugle,

      If we do not base truth from what is found in the Bible then Christianity is no different than Mormonism, Islam, or Jehovah’s Witnesses. In Mormonism, John Smith had a revelation from “God” in a couple of golden tablets and wrote the book of Mormon. Do you think this should be refuted? In Islam, Muhammad had a revelation from “Allah” (the word for god in that language) and wrote the Koran. Do you think this should be refuted? For the Jehovah’s Witnesses, they believe that Jesus only came in spirit not in body and that Jesus was inferior to God and not God Himself. Do you think this needs to be refuted? We simply cannot accept everything that we hear nor can we apologize for speaking against false doctrine. If we know God’s word and his Spirit is alive in us, we will have his discernment to recognize doctrines and teachings that do not align with his love. I know it can be hard to see those we have looked up to in the past come falling down from the pedestals that we place them on, but the only one who needs to have that pedestal in our lives is God. Praying for clarity, wisdom, and comfort for all of us as we pursue God’s truth in this matter.

      Brooke S.

      • sam

        Did you know one of those books has the audacity to say it complements the Bible? Can you imagine one of those books actually teaching what the Bible teaches? Then act as a second witness to the bible, teaching Jesus Christ? God’s prophets taught those from before Jesus Christ (Old Testament), Jesus Christ (and Apostles) of course taught (New Testament). Don’t you thing God loves all his children? It’s true read the book of Mormon and see if it doesn’t teach & testify about Jesus Christ! :) (reference John 10:16 then read verses 14-16) nothing but love

    • Anonymous

      This is not accurate. We are to test all teaching against the Bible. If it doesn’t match, it’s false. Joseph Smith ran around saying that God had revealed things only to him. Now we have Mormonism.

    • ThatGirl

      While I believe God reveals certain things to certain people (hello, the prophets), you can easily tell what’s from God and what isn’t. What Joel and Joyce are preaching is NOT from God. If you bless others, that’s how you get God to bless you? That’s just ludicrous. Bless others without expecting to get something in return. Give your money away and expect to be poor, don’t give your money away and expect to get it back tenfold. Ever read that lil story in the gospels about Jesus and the rich young man? He asked the rich young man to give away EVERYTHING to the poor and follow him. Jesus also said that to follow him would be hard and cause pain and persecution.

      Yes, God can bless you with riches, doesn’t mean you should throw it around. Take a look at the life of Rich Mullins. One of the greatest Christian singer songwriters of all time. His CDs made a lot of money. Do you know how much of it he kept? Very little. The rest of it went to charities. He lived like any lower/middle class person because he told his managers that he didn’t want to know how much he made, that they should just give him what the average person lives on a year and put the rest into ministry. Didn’t have a flashy car, didn’t tour in a big fancy bus, didn’t play huge concert halls all the time. He’d often play at churches, and the admission was whatever you wanted to pay. THAT is a follower of God.

      • Katie

        Also, our reward is JESUS! He is the greatest of all riches. We give of ourselves because we love Christ and want more of Him!

    • sherry

      Jeff, I agree with you in that God can still talk to us. 1 Cor 14 tells us to desire the spiritual gifts, esp. prophecy. Would prophecy not be revelation from the Lord? Unfortunately, the gifts have been abused, which Paul addresses when he states that there should be an interpreter (for the gift of tongues) later in the chapter. Joel 2:28 tells us that the Lord will pour out His Spirit in the latter days, old men will dream dreams, young men will dream dreams. Does God not speak in dreams? What do the latter days mean? Later than the 1st century A.D.?

      • sam

        Latter days refers to the time that the complete gospel ‘fell’ from the Earth. The period of time when there was no Priesthood (on the Earth) after Jesus Christ & all his apostles were killed, or died. (reference 2 Thessalonians 2:3). The Second Coming will not happen until the priesthood of God had gone. (for fun also reference 1 Corinthians 15:40-44, so much knowledge in those verses. 3 glories)

    • Anonymous

      “your words are those of jealousy”: c’mon man. I read this article objectively and sensed no jealousy whatsoever. Is John Piper also jealous? He’s certainly popular enough to live the kind of lifestyle he’s preaching against.

    • Katie

      I am uncomfortable with the fact that you are putting as much emphasis on Joel and Joyce as you are on God. Calling out false teaching is all over the New Testament. When we see something wrong with a teaching, we need to step back and line up Scripture. Would you allow your friend to take part in a money scam after you have discovered the truth, or would you go and warn them so that they may discern for themselves? How much more should we take care with our spiritual well being!

      Lord, may we not be offended by Your Truth! Allow us the humility that is required for being molded as clay.

    • Gina

      Don’t let your feelings get hurt, Jeff. I didn’t take this article as an attack on them personally. It attacked their false teachings. If you’d give yourself a moment in God’s word to really reflect on what He says regarding false teachings and false prophets you would see where this guy is coming from. Don’t put your trust in man to reveal all that God wants to teach you, keep your trust in God and His word.

  • Sharon Hess

    Fantastic article, and I have read about the heresies of these people on other Christian websites and blogs. You would think that after Jim and Tammy Baker, and many others who, like Simon the Sorcerer, (who wanted the Holy Spirit to help him make a profit), that our generation would have learned how to spot a false teacher by now. Those of us who love to read the Bible, will often get into debates over theology, as we “Sharpen each others swords”, and this is a good thing. Knowing what the Gospel is about, and studying the words of the New Testament writers, will help us spot a fraud as soon as we encounter one…..much like a bank teller who passes so many bills through her hands, that she can tell a counterfeit without even looking down. Thanks for being a “lighthouse” to those who are blindly drifting in a dark sea……

  • Darren Chan

    Dear Rick, I can only imagine that like many of us who make a stand for faith, that it is done with the intent to at least make people think, for souls are at stake. In my personal attempt at exegetical interpretation, I find that we have taken the inspired word of God and have put such a western spin on it that we have created a theological grid of western proof-texting that only partial truth is derived. We have allowed personal biases in selfish Western culture to infiltrate Biblical illumination. As I have learned that many sources cloud our thinking I must remember that the Bible is Eastern Literature and most of the NT is written in street Greek. So my point is that many in these last days who teach a half truth is to be loving confronted and corrected. As these to who profess to be teachers have been, they deny correction. James 3:1 must not be taken lightly!

    The Power of the Tongue

     1  Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, because you know that we will be judged more strictly.

    Rick, check out Dr. Bob Utley at http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/

  • Candi

    Amzaing! Shared on facebook and will share on Twitter as well. Thank you for this post! Some spelling errors but that comes from typing fast I’m sure (I’m a typist so I know how that goes). God bless you and your family Rick!

  • Julie Rowland

    I agree with Jeff and Joseph-who will cast the first stone?

    • Les

      Did you even read the article? Do you even read and understand and compare what these two ‘preachers’ say against what the Word actually says? They should trouble you deeply and that they do not is cause for concern.

  • RH

    Your personal take on this issue clearly tells me you cast judgment which is not Christian like at all. I can take a few lines of what you said and turn it into something totally different also to make the eye twist a little. Though you are receiving a little attention from this I don’t think your message will ever come across as strong as theirs! Be blissed with happiness. Be blessed with faith. Beware of the stone. RH

    • Word of Life Church

      I dont think that this is about getting attention of anybody or having a strong word, but preaching the Truth, Joel and Joyce are confused biblically, just open your eyes, i hope that i would open

      • Anonymous

        could it be that we might be confused,could it be that the verses we read and study tell us one thing and they read the same verses and it tells them another thing.John 3:16 has always confused me,it says for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. well I have always been taught that satan believes,does that mean he will have everlasting life?but I have been taught that satan will burn in the lake of fire.a study for years on the last part of the verse”should not perish ” shows us that should not means might not it does not mean will not,so does that mean we will have everlasting life or we might have everlasting life.

      • ThatGirl

        To the anonymous person,

        Do a word study on the original Greek. Things get lost in translation. Number two, satan will burn because though he knows God exists, he has rejected God. You can’t reject God and be with Him. That is the fundamental difference.

    • bob

      Did you not cast judgment upon him for casting judgment?

      Read 1 Cor 5:12-13.

      We are supposed to judge believers… not unbelievers.

      • triplejaymom

        TRUE, Bob! We are TOLD to judge believers! And to gently rebuke those who are in sin. “You shall know them by their fruit.”
        Titus 1 says:
        He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. 10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach–and that for the sake of dishonest gain. …..13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.

  • Warren Fox

    I’m a pastor and often find Joyce’s and Joel’s books in the homes of my church members when I’m visiting them. Sadly biblical theology has taken a back seat to the emotional “name-it-claim-it” theology of the false prophets today. I thank the Lord for true proclaimers of biblical truth who are bold enough to expose the peddlers of false doctrine. Jesus did say, “Judge not that you be not judged.” But He also told us to “judge with righteous judgment.” The fruit of a false prophet (teacher) is false doctrine and Jesus told us we would know them by their fruit. The fruit of a false teacher is false teaching. Wake up Christians! Stop being “me centered” and begin being “Christ centered.”

    • raeolight

      Amen Warren, It’s happening in our churches everyday. If you want a minister to follow look at Rick Warren who, instead of taking a larger salary from his church after his books success, instead gave back his salary. I think the reason many people are turning to these false teachers is b/c we’ve become a microwave society. We aren’t used to waiting on God, we want to get as much self help as we can and take away God’s control on our lives. We need to stand up as a church and stop feeding milk and start trusting our members with meat. We can’t be afraid to offend. If Jesus finished a sermon with just his closest friends still by his side, why do we think we shouldn’t sometimes preach the truth with the same results? I’m not against big numbers or large churches but I am against being afraid to toss the apple cart and get people back into the scriptures so instead of just quoting bits and pieces to suite their arguments they instead dig deep, look at context, look at culture and look finally and fully at our Lord and stop looking to men and women to bring them salvation.

      • bortmann

        Tragically Gandhi, Muhammad, and Buddha, are all suffering in Hades today because they denied the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:3-4), they denied the virgin birth (Luke 1:1-79), they denied the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15), and they denied Jesus as the only begotten son of God. (John 3:18)

      • Marie

        Sorry, but I can’t follow Rick Warren after he traveled to Syria and said there is no persecution of Jews or Christians there, is a member of the ecumenical “let’s find common ground between Christianity and Islam movement”, also known as “Chrislam”; also a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, a New World Order group (which also jibes with the ecumenical “one world religion” movement”). He’s totally jumped the shark.

      • Marie

        Rick Warren is on video, on YouTube, meeting with Assad, denying terrorism exists there. That no extremism exists there. After Warren was challenged on his recorded statements, he had the video scrubbed from YouTube. He denied it existed, then when caught, quickly scrubbed it. By his own admission, he’s a “member in good standing with the Council on Foreign Relations”, and went to a meeting of church organizations regarding furthering the ecumenical movement, specifically discussed: “Chrislam”

    • Anonymous

      Amen, Warren Fox.

    • Anonymous

      Amen, I love that line, “stop being me centered and start being Christ centered”!

  • Jenni

    Why are you judging? This is something spoken of often in the bible. I am sure there will be a lot more people in heaven because of these two (even if they aren’t 100% correct in their theology) because who is. The bible is so complex and the problem is that there are so many people out there like yourself who stand in judgement and just bring division and confusion. What a bad witness for people from other religiions. I went down the road of listening to someone like yourself and there was no life in it. When Joel and Joyce speak you can feel life.

    • anon

      Correctly understanding Gods word is very simple. And yet, we will never be finished learning from it. That is to mean, Gods word is more than enough, To say otherwise is to claim that God doesn’t know how to teach his own people. For people (The ones in the article) that purposefully teach things that are not in Gods word… They Should Know BETTER. Gods Word is about the heart and the head, John Piper is a much much better man for theology, and so should get the support these two steal. But… “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” 2 Tim 4:3-4. We must be aware of how bad this type of teaching is.

    • Jesse

      And many more will perish because of false teachings, at what cost do we owe prosperity? teach right teach Christ, that’s much easier and all will go to heaven.

    • Robbie Zeigler

      As Christians we are to judge with Righteous judgement. No wrong was done here.

    • Kim

      Actually, the nation of Islam is benefiting greatly from the ministries of prosperity preachers in Africa and other impoverished nations. People flock to their gatherings, soak up their teaching and then recognize later that it comes to nothing. They then look elsewhere and end up being assimilated into Islam which offers them education, community and support. When the false christianity yields no return, it’s no wonder that Islam continues to grow.

      It is also important to remember that, although we are told to compare what we hear with the Word of God, it is the western Christians who hold the storehouse of bibles and biblical helps. Most impoverished people lack education and biblical resources (which is one reason they flock to Islam–to receive education) and are left to take the preacher at his/her word. We who have the Truth are responsible to see to it that it is shared accurately and that it gets into the hands of those who are hungry and seeking.

    • Sherry

      Jenni, believing in God’s Word has NOTHING to do with “feelings”. Jesus clearly states you WILL feel persecution and you WILL suffer trials. The true Gospel is not a warm fuzzy. Open the Bible and read for yourself. it is NOT about feeling good. It’s about a commitment to love and serve Jesus, a decision, not a feeling. I am sorry you are being misled.

  • James

    Where’s the popcorn? Watching Christians “thinking” is hilarious!

    • Marie

      At least you’re here — let’s pray something sticks. If not, on judgement day when you’re asked why you made the choice to reject Christ, you can’t claim you never heard of it. You’ll be “without excuse”, just as the bible says. Instead of knocking Christians, why don’t you get a Bible, read it, and extract your arguments from there? God will even help you find them. But, you have to ASK His help in doing so. If not, you just appear to be a popcorn chomping, cackling hyena. Like a man passing the high stakes poker game, who doesn’t know enough to play, so he can’t get in the game.

  • Patrick Richardson

    So I’m hearing to pray for mercy over you. Unity above all, not a spirit of I’m right. You can be dead right but present it dead wrong and your words become death to the hearer. I’m sure not everything Joel and Joyce are saying can be right. Good or bad they are working out their salvation in the publics eyes while you are, well then again who are you? Who am i? I trust their heart and i can hear the Spirit tell me if what they are saying i need or don’t. I think God puts them in the public eye cause He can trust them. Can you trust your God in them? I would encourage a fruit of the Spirit, love. Praying mercy over you and your family and any open door you are opening because of your attacks on God’s anointed kids.

    • NickM

      If they don’t speak truth and go against God’s word then they are false prophets and you sir have been duped!

    • sheiladailie

      Please check your logic. Hitler was in the public eye and spoke of God’s call to the Aryan race. Just being in the spotlight does not say one is called of God.

      Scripture teaches that God allows & works all things out for good when we LOVE him. The Bible also teaches that we are to be discerning, like the Berean church that tested Paul’s teaching against the Scripture.

    • Anonymous

      Most solid retort thus far!

    • Marie

      Unity above all? Unity with what, false doctrines? I say the Word above all. Discernment comes from the Word.

  • Adam Cummings

    To Joseph Keller:

    I would rather say that Jesus died for only some… and atoned completely and fully for them (which is exactly what John 6 and 10 teach, by the way), than to claim that Jesus died for people burning in hell.

    Mr Keller, Charles Haddon Spurgeon called the view your are espousing, basically, a monstrosity, that God would punish those for whom Christ died. Go back and read John more carefully.

    Great article, by the way! I’ve been waiting for someone to fairly and rightly critique Joyce Meyer. Good observations! Thank you.

    SDG,
    Adam

  • Shaun

    There are several people calling out the “judging” claim on this article and I need to clarify something. Holding something to the Truth of the Gospel through the lense of the Bible is NOT judging. We are clearly called to point out false prophets that none may be lead astray. Rick is doing exactly what the Bible commands us to do. Given your theories, stating Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and any of the other cults out there as false prophecy is judgement. Read the article, read your Bibles, and then ask yourself if is he judging or teaching. Thanks Rick for the awesome article.

    Revelations 22: 18-19 “18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.”

  • Anonymous

    I would say this. If you are really serious about God and his word and want to really make it to heaven then why do you read the scriptures and jump over the most important ones like Acts 2;38, Acts 4:12,Ephesians 4:5,John 1:1-8 and so on. Im proud to say i am a Apostolic, Jesus Name, One God tounge talking Holy roller that believes in not some of the word not part of the word, but all of the word!! If you are so scared to walk into a united Penticostal church which is the same message that was preached on the day of penticost then your missing out on quite a relationship with jesus!!!

  • Ruth Hauer Hoffmann

    Ruth Hauer Hoffmann Honestly the apostle Paul tells us not to turn on each other as Christians. It’s just not worth it when evangelizing Gods word. It’s a timeless message Paul tells us, not to be a follower of him nor any man. We are to seek only Jesus. It is sad when one denomination wants to think that there is a hitch that they know more than another denomination of Christians. There is a lot of wonderful things about Joyce and Joel. Shame on John Piper for pointing at these Christians and clamming he knows the secret hitch in the bible. That you need to follow John only to know the truth. Jesus love is the truth. There is no secret hitch. Love is the message that has helped many worried and burdened individuals find peace. The love message that any and all can take from Joyce and Joel is worth not tearing them down as our sister and brother in Christ. Let not doctrine get in the way of the bigger picture. For example some may believe in once saved always saved and some may not. Johns passion looks prideful. That was the apostle Paul’s sin too. Maybe John needs to read some of Paul in the bible. Paul
    knew this was his problem and could help humble John in my opinion.

    • raeolight

      Umm if you think that were true Ruth, than why did Paul call Peter out on a lot of things. We are to keep each in good graces, as Iron sharpens Iron. Yes Joyce and Joel do a lot of great things on the surface but it’s what is beneath their message that is the problem. It’s just simply not Biblical. And if John and Rick did not rebuke them than they would be just as guilty of allowing the false teachings to continue. Instead of quoting Joyce or Joel, why don’t you quote the Bible.

    • Ben

      “Be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” -Paul

  • Anonymous

    Pray for them and if given the chance approach them with love and reason with them for the sake of the Kingdom of God. False teachings should be exposed and corrected, but we also should not destroy ones name and reputation to gain theologic understanding. That’s not the love of Christ! Joel and Joyce SEEM to be loving and understanding people, so instead of this article, preparation to meet or have some type of communication with them would of have been more beneficial. This article is equivalent to talking behind ones back, which is an worldly act. If your going to be for Christ, be for Christ all the way. The information was informal, but the approach of correction was worldly.

    • Cindy

      yes!!!
      To me this type of approach is ugly and quite a turn off. This kind of forum for ” calling people out” is not in love at all, but rather a form of gossiping. What are the odds of Joel or Joyce even seeing this article?

    • Knitted in the Womb

      Paul rebuked Peter publiclly for false teaching, there is no indication given in scripture that he approached Peter privately first. I’d also be more than willing to bet that over the years, Osteen and Meyers have both been approached privately about the error in their teaching, and have not heeded the rebukes.

  • Anonyomous

    Faith is everywhere! Believing in it makes you different. So…what is the “truth” in times of change? People are always quick to judge and cry heresy and hypocrisy when their own “truth” and “faith” is challenged. I believe Joel and Joyce and doing good by what they know and were taught in their seminary education. But they also lived a life that expresses their humanistic qualities along with their faith teachings. I see Joel and Joyce as tools of encouragement whatever a persons’ life is in–good or bad. But on a realistic level, people need to help themselves…but also having some faith and encourgement can help. If Jesus’s words are the truth, then he helped people testify their faith in him, which included Joel and Joyce. Live your life. Believe and follow in your faith. Things can change, and you can tell the world about it.

    • NickM

      Did you actually read the article? The doctrinal error and extra-biblical revelation claimed was perfectly clear and not Holy Spirit inspired. To give people false hope is the worst hope of all!

    • Anonymous

      Faith is useless is not situated on truth.

      • bortmann

        Neither Joel nor Joyce went to seminary.

      • Evie

        what does that have to do with anything. More education doesn’t make one more spiritual. Not saying I agree or disagree with the article. I have to study this more. My grandfather was a self-taught preacher. No seminary. But he taught from the word of God, not what he was told to say from a few professors in seminary.

    • Goodguy

      Joel never went to Seminary. He only sat at his father’s side, who was no better than he is now. Joyce, I don’t know about her background but she’s very bad. Works alone will not get you into Heaven. And for them to teach that God is at beckon call is doing nothing more than trying to turn the God of all Creation into nothing more than a genie in a lamp. As for those that are crying about judgement. It is “Judge not lest ye be judged”. You look at yourself and make sure you are not guilty of that which you are rebuking and then go forth. The speck in your brother’s eye??? That’s no different than the speck in your own eye that looks like a log because it sits in front of your face. So look at your own sin and correct yourself if you have those same errors and then go forth to help correct your brethren. If the writer of this article is not guilty of belittling God and teaching this heresy then he is perfectly within God’s Word to come forth and sit in judgement of that heresy being performed by someone else.

      • Anonymous

        Did Jesus go to seminary? Just a thought! When the Pharisees told Jesus how He had to do things, He first thought of the mission – to bring more people to Himself.

  • Dan orencia

    I agree. Am praying with you that many pastors will see who they really that they are false teachers.

  • Adam Cummings

    I don’t think the “anonymous” comments in here really deserve much reply. Not to mention, I wouldn’t want to stray away from Rick’s purpose here. It’s a great article. To those who think Joel and Joyce are “nice”, think again. They are false teachers heaping up listeners with ears that want to be tickled. Joel has, on numerous occasions, denied the gospel on live television (YouTube Steve Lawson, Joel Osteen). He has also boasted about being blessed by God because of his material possessions. If the apostle Paul were here, the love of Christ would demand that, for the sake of people who truly are seeking Christ and are being choked out by false teaching, he speak boldly and unapologetically, as he did often with false teachers. As to the bragging holy roller, the only time Scripture really mentions “rolling” were times it spoke about demon possession. If you are telling people they haven’t experienced Jesus unless they have spoken in tongues and rolled on the ground like a demon possessed fool, you are speaking heresy and hurting the faith of many.

    In any case, Scripture speaks for itself, so I’m not one to get upset or give a twenty page defense of this article. I think the truths contained therein speak for themselves.

    The apostle Paul was not “nice” in the manner that many of you define “nice.” He spoke with with authority, as did Christ. With Joyce and Joel, we’re not talking about straying brothers and sisters, we’re talking about false prophets. They need to be denounced. The fact that Rick did it with so much grace actually speaks volumes to me. I likely would have been much harsher.

    SDG~

    Adam

  • Vee

    Great piece of article. Posting it on my FB too. Glad there was somebody in you brought light to some of my own suspicions.

  • life pneuma

    As a Christian with a physical disability. I have been prayed over many times by people who believe in the health and wealth gospel, and guess what? God hasn’t chosen to heal me I rejoice when I hear of others being healed, but.one would think I would be jealous when I heard it. I’m not, because I’m living my life for Christ, and he. being God, voluntarily disabled himself to become a man. My God understands my frustration of being limited, and that’s all that matters to me.

    • ThatGirl

      This reply has touched my heart. Some would say that my brother was “punished” by God because he lost his leg and his dream of being an Olympic runner. But through his amputation, he has been such a witness of God’s faithfulness in trying times, and it’s helped people see God. All for His glory.

    • Sky

      “We learn more from pain than from pleasure.” I think Joel said that. It’s so true. I was diagnosed with IBD in 97. I’ve been on death’s door a couple of times. It hit me so hard, I lost down to 85 lbs., lost most of my colon, had a stroke on my birthday and 13 seizures. I didn’t know that this happened because, thankfully, I was in a coma during the 5 days this happened. Ten months before this happened, I was serving in the military. I did things I wasn’t supposed to do. I drank every weekend and smoked cigarettes. I went to clubs and partied because, then, that was how I coped with stress. 7 months before my diagnosis, something kept nagging at me. It was a voice I couldn’t hear but felt. It didn’t go away, but got louder. I didn’t listen. I know now that I was running from God. I didn’t think of this when it was happening. Ever day, I heard, ‘Get saved’ over and over again. Instead I chose to ignore it. Then that fall, the IBD slammed into me like a freight train. Oh, I got saved about 2 weeks before I almost died. I did it in the nick of time, that’s for sure. Even though it’s been a rough road and still is tough sometimes, I wouldn’t change anything. Why? Because I have grown by leaps and bounds. Through my sorrow and pain, I was able to laugh at more, stop and smell the roses, as they say.:) I think it has truly helped my writing and now I’m a published author. I am able to write my characters with tangible emotions. This experience has opened my eyes and I see more, understand more and feel more compassion. Now that my eyes are open, I can see things and feel things others can’t. Now I wonder how so many people can be so blind. Take the way the world is now. I see signs of just how close we are to the end times. I read other people’s comments about it. They think it’s just crazy Christian talk., they laugh about it and make fun of it. I tell them to laugh now because they won’t be laughing much longer. It’s right in front of their faces and they can’t see it. Or refuse to. I know Rick has said he doesn’t really believe God talks to Joyce. I think it’s wrong to say that because he’s not in her head and I don’t think he should question how someone communicates with God. God talks to us all differently in a way He knows we’ll pay attention. God doesn’t talk to me when I’m awake. But, I do have vivid dreams about things like what’s going to happen when we get closer and closer to the world ending. I know these dreams are different because something so strong compels me to write it all down, date it and put the approximate time I dreamed it. I’ve head dream in 2011 that have come to pass last year. I know that even some believers don’t think it happens. I already have atheists thinking that I don’t know what I’m talking about and those dreams didn’t happen. I think it’s funny they say this because they’re not in my dreams, yet they think they know me better than I know myself. I have put all my dreams in a journal. Some things haven’t happened yet but, in my heart, I think the things I’ve dreamed are going to happen eventually. As a matter of fact, I’m working on an end of the world novel using my dreams to as part of the book.
      So, the fact that I had to endure this illness has helped me. If I hadn’t been bed ridden and couldn’t work outside the home, I might have waited much longer to start a writing career. I’ve written before but now, it’s my biggest passion.
      I listen to Joel every Sunday because he has a way of bringing some optimism when my sometimes gets low. I’m an optimistic person but, with IBD, sometimes you can feel blah and that hinders me.
      I just don’t think we, as Christians, need to be against each other because there will come a time when we’ll need every ounce of faith when bad things come against us. With how the world is getting, we need to stick together, not try to find the mistakes in people. The world’s only going to get worse. We need all the prayers we can get.

  • Rolly Delgado

    It’s been my whole concern as a Pastor of more than 25 years too. I am upfront to my parishioners here in the Philippines to watch out from the teachings of this two prosperity/ false teachers that confused the the mind of the people. They’re going beyond what the Bible teaches as if the Scripture is inadequate that they need to add more. That’s really frustrating to know that their theology is has no depth at all. There are many people here in the Philippines with easy an believism attitude that believe in them. I pray that they would see the truth behind this lies!

  • monique

    Joyce Meyers and Joel Olsen are great preachers and if people want to know the truth they should pick up their Bibles and search for the answers and not rely on others and if they preach from their Bibles which the both do u can always look it up to see the truth for yourself

    • anon

      Teachers are a gift of God, and God places them there to guide and help us. To say that the people must just go look for the truth themselves when the preacher is claiming to have some “special knowledge”, is unhelpful. Teachers who teach wrongly need to be exposed. Not silenced, but shown up for their false teaching.

    • bortmann

      At this moment, false prophets and false teachers are teaching destructive heresies denying the Lord who once bought them by His blood. (2 Pet 2:1, Mat. 24:4-5)! Why aren’t Christian leaders exposing those denying Jesus as the only way (Joel Osteen), denying the gifts of the Holy Spirit (John MacArthur), denying the triune nature of God (TD Jakes), denying Jesus as the only begotten Son of God (Ken Copeland), denying any believer can ever depart from the faith (Charles Stanley), denying hell (Rob Bell), denying any saint will be overcome by the Beast (Tim LaHaye)!!!!!!!!!

    • Anonymous

      :) Love this!!

      • bortmann

        Stacy,

        Where in the Bible do you see Christians are not supposed to judge?

        If Christians aren’t supposed to judge other Christians, that we should leave all judging up to God like more and more ministers are teaching today, then what does Paul’s exhortation to judge and disciple below mean?

        ‘Now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (1 Cor. 5:11-13)

    • Kim W

      Agreed. Study on your own, don’t just get spoon fed nonsense.
      The anointing that you received from him remains in you and you do not need any man to be teaching you, but as the anointing from him is teaching you all things and is true, and is no lie, and just as it has taught you, you shall remain in union with him. 1 John 2:27

      • peter

        Agreed and complimenting with Jeremiah 29:8-9: For Thus, saith Yahweh of hosts God of Israel, Let not your prophets that are in your midst nor your diviners beguile you,—Neither hearken ye unto your dreams which ye are dreaming; For falsely, are they prophesying unto you in my name,—I have not sent them, Declareth Yahweh.[Rotherham])

  • Daughter of the King of Kings

    When I first started to reconnect with God I would listen to Joel Osteen. I would be all warm & fuzzy with happiness with the feel good message he preaches. Later I notice how it was just a feel good message & not the Bible that was being preached. At least if you are going to push happy feeling message at least put some scripture to back it up & not say you can find it in the book of … We are becoming a society where we want instant happiness & we are turning to feel good messages instead of turning to the Bible for joy. Happiness & joy are two different things. Happiness is short lived (like having a new job the newness wears off after awhile). Joy a person always will have (like having God answer your prayers). People are taking God Word paraphrasing & sugar coating to where it sounds a lot like God so people instantly accept it especially when the word God is in the sentence.

  • Anonymous

    who are we to Judge, I love Joyce Meyers. I think she is a wonderful Teacher of God’s word. you tell me 1 preacher that doesn’t wait for people to applause for something they said. Matter of fact Rick, you being a Preacher of God’s word for 20 years…how many times people applause you for saying something good. ….what you should of done is pray about it before you said anything about it….the bible said’s in Matthew 18: 15 if your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over…it doesn’t say in the bible to openly called them out…shame on you Rick.

    • flircsouthafrica

      I think Rick and others would have. Unfortunately these teachers do not want correction. And thus must be rebuked publicly. It would be considered that they are not a ‘humble brother, ignorant of their mistake’, they are honestly ignoring the call to repent, and thus must be shown up.

    • bortmann

      The time has come to expose false teachers deceiving millions of Christians worldwide. The ministers below boldly DENY Jesus as the only Begotten Son of God. (John 3:16) This is not just an incorrect interpretation; it’s a heretical doctrine that separates salvation by any Christian being deceived by it (John 3:18). I challenge you to view YOUTUBE clips below and see how well known ministers are deceptively coming in Christs name (Mat. 24:4-5) while sowing heresies denying the Lord that once bought them by His blood!!! (2 Pet. 2:1)

      Paul Crouch [Ye Are Little Gods False Trinity Teachers Speak, T. 0:47-1:15]

      Larry Huch [False Prophets In The Last Days, T. 0:01-0:17]

      Paula White [False Prophets In The Last Days, T. 0:01-0:17]

      Creflo Dollar [Little Gods Do Their Thing Today, T. 1:01-1:29]

      Benny Hinn [The Heretical Teachings Of Benny Hinn, T. 0:01-0:42]

      Ken Copeland [Word of Faith Teachings... Heretical, T. 1:10-10:49]

      Bill Johnson [Bill Johnson False Teacher, T. 3:48-4:55]

    • Paul

      And of course, anonymous, you met with Rick – just the two of you – before you openly called him out here, right?

    • ThatGirl

      I’ll name at least two preachers who don’t/didn’t wait for applause. My grandfather and then the pastor at my home church. Both were and are much loved by their congregations. But what they preach is hard. They preach that you will experience trials when following Christ…something Christ himself said. This is NOT what Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer preach.

    • Knitted in the Womb

      Ummm…well, the pastor of my church doesn’t, buy hey, he’s only a local preacher, not looking to get on TV.

    • Sherry

      The Bible clearly states women are NOT to be preachers. God’s Word is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. It doesn’t change. If you listen to her, you are following someone who does NOT follow Christ.

  • Billie Fay Coleman

    I do not know you Rick. I do know this one fact, Joyce Meyer Ministries is a member of Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. Ever heard of it? Maybe you should do a little more investigating before you accuse someone of misusing funds. Thank you

    • raeolight

      yeah and last I checked her whole family is on the board as well as Joel Olsteen’s brother.. maybe you should do more research. There are a lot of “ministries” that are used as fronts to spend and launder money

  • Tommy

    These two folks, Joel and Joyce, are false prophets. Do they mean harm? No, but what they teach is false. As one person already stated, this isn’t judgement of them, but what they teach is being judged through the lens of the Bible. As believing Christians, we are always to stand the “philosophy” and thoughts of so called teachers to the word of God. If it doesn’t stand up to the word, then it is deemed false. It is our duty as Christians, to point this out to the “offenders” in a loving way. If they refuse to listen and change, and all attempts made as prescribed in the word, then we are to “shake the dust off our sandals” and move on. I believe they are good people, they are just misguided. But, their misguided teaching will hurt many of the “elect” and those who come to think that what they are preaching is salvation. We are in the end times and we must all be on our guard for the false teachings and false prophets. We must focus on the word of God, keep our faith strong, and look towards the sky for our redeemer.

  • Quintin

    Hi there. I love this article. However my friends are concerned that these comments, while theologically correct, may have been made out of theological order. Could you please defend your METHOD (preaching a sermon, writing a blog post) without providing evidence that you have at least attempted to follow Matthew 18?

    I will certainly point them to your next post.

  • Lynn

    Not quite sure where to start here… I definitely don’t believe in the whole “name it and claim it” bunch but I also think you’re a little off here. One thing that really bothers me about this whole article is that you yourself did not show anywhere in the scripute where these two are off. Who cares what you think, if you can’t back it up with the scripture then it’s just your option and you’re as guilty as they are.

    • qbalsdon

      Hi Lynn, just looking at the first item, would you say that it’s biblically accurate for someone to preach “that Jesus literally stopped being the Son of God on the Cross.” We can’t find a verse for that… that’s why it’s heresy. If you are prepared to defend them, I would suggest finding the SUPPORTIVE scripture for Joel and Joyce’s theology as presented here. The reason this article has none is because the teachings are not found in scripture.

      • Anonymous

        Hi, just i found the scripture that you requested of Lynn to back up what Joyce said about when Jesus stopped being the son of God. When Jesus died on the cross he became sin, when he became sin his own Father and our God could not look upon him or the sin that he became that is why Jesus called out saying “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” and right before he parted Jesus cried out with a loud voice and gave up the Ghost (the Holy Ghost) which is who is sent to us when we call upon him today. By Jesus giving up the Holy Spirit, he himself became man not the son of God. You can find this in St.Mark 15:30-39. I do not study theology, I am a faith based person who has done quit a bit of study and has a great teacher that I go to with questions, I test every spirit and anyone who says they are a pastor or teacher of Christ, so I have to agree with Lynn when she said that the author of this article did not give any scripture to back up what he was saying, I don’t believe that he is a faith based person.

  • Donna

    Reblogged this on life without peanut butter and commented:
    I am still working slowly through this article. I urge all my friends to do the same. I see many, many dedicated, godly Christians following the teachings of Osteen and Joyce Meyer and from my own discernment and guidance of other Christians, I have known they were individuals to avoid as they taught a false gospel.

    This will probably (er, definitely) offend some of my friends. I post this out of LOVE, not out of judgement of you. Please read the post and watch the embedded videos with an open mind – Jon Piper and Rick Henderson speak the truth on this matter.

    Remember: what is popular is not always right. And what is right is not always popular.

    Love,

    Donna

  • Frank Laws

    Paul tells us to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” in Phillipians 2:12. Obviously we cannot earn our salvation through works, as Romans shows us in the first couple of chapters. As Paul was writing to the church (believers) in Phillipi, we can infer that once we are saved, we should be not only sharing our faith, but going deep into scripture and into prayer. Any “teacher” or pastor of the bible that rarely uses the bible and/or spends more time on themselves or extra biblical “revelation” is not one a follower of Christ should be giving any credence to…

    • Anonymous

      I agree with the last comment. Also, to reiterate, for those who keep bringing up Matthew 18, we are not talking about brothers and sisters in Christ here. These two are not simply “misled”, they are misleading; they are false teachers. Read what they say. Compare it with Scripture. Paul says those who preach any other gospel are anathema (as well as those who will not preach it, of course). So, Matthew 18 does not apply. I know many in here are honestly asking this question. Others are asking because they want to make the author look rude and unloving. The most loving thing to do for the sake of the church is to expose false prophets.

      Furthermore, even if they were brothers/sisters, these issues are not mere theological nuances, they are theological differences that can make or break heresy. Paul, in Galatians 1, called out Peter because his acts, and the message those acts conveyed publicly were wrong. Despite what some may say, there was no “Matthew 18″ there.

      Joel and Joyce have some of the largest platforms out there and they are publicly spreading heresy. This is not private sin, and this is well beyond the bounds of Matthew 18.

      If you want to continue to remain quiet about heresy and use Matthew 18 as your hideaway, that’s fine. But don’t accuse others who are properly obeying Scripture and tearing down the things that would set themselves against the gospel of Christ. We need more Spurgeons today. More Edwards. More Ricks. This is the only loving option for the people of God.

      • bortmann

        Anonymous this is a heretical quote from you,

        “By Jesus giving up the Holy Spirit, he himself became man not the son of God. You can find this in St.Mark 15:30-39. I do not study theology, I am a faith based person who has done quit a bit of study and has a great teacher that I go to with questions, I test every spirit and anyone who says they are a pastor or teacher of Christ…” Anonymous

        Sir, if Jesus became a man and a sinner and no longer the Son of God like you teach, then He ceased to be divine. When you declare Jesus was no longer the Son of God you’re teaching heretical blasphemy!!!

        You need to repent because this is a salvation issue. Anyone, including such popular Word of Faith preachers as Benny Hinn, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Ken Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jessie Duplantis, and Rod Parsley, who boldly teach after the cross Jesus was longer was the Son of God and had to be born again by the Spirit of God when He was resurrected. they’re teaching a doctrine of demons denying the Lord.

      • Cindy

        One of the biggest heresies the church is guilty of is paganism. why don’t people stand up and fight against that every ” easter and Christmas.”

    • Adam Cummings

      I agree with the last comment. Also, to reiterate, for those who keep bringing up Matthew 18, we are not talking about brothers and sisters in Christ here. These two are not simply “misled”, they are misleading; they are false teachers. Read what they say. Compare it with Scripture. Paul says those who preach any other gospel are anathema (as well as those who will not preach it, of course). So, Matthew 18 does not apply. I know many in here are honestly asking this question. Others are asking because they want to make the author look rude and unloving. The most loving thing to do for the sake of the church is to expose false prophets.

      Furthermore, even if they were brothers/sisters, these issues are not mere theological nuances, they are theological differences that can make or break heresy. Paul, in Galatians 1, called out Peter because his acts, and the message those acts conveyed publicly were wrong. Despite what some may say, there was no “Matthew 18″ there.

      Joel and Joyce have some of the largest platforms out there and they are publicly spreading heresy. This is not private sin, and this is well beyond the bounds of Matthew 18.

      If you want to continue to remain quiet about heresy and use Matthew 18 as your hideaway, that’s fine. But don’t accuse others who are properly obeying Scripture and tearing down the things that would set themselves against the gospel of Christ. We need more Spurgeons today. More Edwards. More Ricks. This is the only loving option for the people of God.

      • raeolight

        in total agreement. It also is a warning for people to judge others while being in the exact same sin. It doesn’t say we aren’t supposed to but that we can’t tell people to do as I say not as I do so to speak. Like an adulterer telling another adulterer to stop what they are doing. As far as I am aware the author is not creating his own “revealed scriptures or doctrine” so he is not involved the the same sin, therefore calling someone one out on a sin is not against what Matthew 18 is teaching.

  • bortmann

    Baptist ministers like Charles Stanley, John MacArthur and David Jeremiah teach once saved always saved (false) the gifts have passed away (false) the rapture before the persecution by the Antichrist (false) and tongues is demonic (blasphemy)!!! They’re deceiving more believers than the prosperity teachers!!

  • bortmann

    When John MacArthur teaches the speaking in tongues is demonic, he is attributing the gift of God to Satan, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Is he a heretic?

    [Youtube Truth About Speaking In Tongues-John MacArthur 1, T. 7:38-8:27]

    I

  • Anonymous

    And we have men of faith calling out names as faulty gospel preachers, ‘prosperity preachers’ and the like…
    If preachers and men in the service of God begin to judge one another as false and take it into their hands to question what the other preaches,does/doesnt do, have/ don’t have…
    I only have one question to ask, which one of you is the hypocrite, the one who judges or the one who is alleged of faulty preaching? Does not the God we speak of asks of us not to judge? (Mat.7:1-6)
    What in turn are you showing to men who believe, whose faith must be strengthened, whose doubts must be cleared, whose questions must be answered, whose sins are yet to be forgiven, who is looking for a deliverance in desperation…which way then are you leading these people to when you judge..

    • bortmann

      One must be abiding in the doctrine of Christ to be saved. (1 John 1:9) None of the above preachers are saved anymore because they continue to teach heresies denying the Lord who once bought them. (2 Pet 2:1) And this isn’t a debate or arguing over doctrine- its exposing these heretics for who they are…enemies of the cross!!!

      Word of Faith preachers Benny Hinn, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Ken Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jessie Duplantis, and Rod Parsley openly teach the heresy Jesus became an unholy sinner on the cross by accepting the nature of Satan, died spiritually, suffered in hell for three days for our sins, and had to be born again when He resurrected from the dead. I ask you, where are our Christian leaders in their rebuke of such heretical blasphemy?

      These ministers teach the heretical blasphemy Jesus died spiritually and had to be born again. Tragically, this a perfect example of teachers trampling the blood of the Son of God underfoot that once sanctified them!! (Heb. 10:29)

      • Deon

        I’m wondering what you do with scripture that says Jesus became sin for us. I believe the the term sin and sinner are interchangeable in this dialog.

        I do not recall any scripture that says a man loses his salvation for his understanding of how Christ bought our Salvation, only denying that Christ is the resurrected son of God and refusing His sacrifice can cause you to lose your Salvation, otherwise, the above named preachers are saved by their works.

  • bortmann

    How tragic John Piper exposes prosperity teachers for teaching a false gospel (they are) when he also is teaching another gospel called Calvinism.

  • bortmann

    Exposing workers of darkness is not a matter of our personal anger; we are commanded to expose them to the light, to warn the saints. The Apostle Paul and the Apostle John both gave us the names of false prophets in the church. It is not a personal matter of our being offended by them. Not to warn baby Christians of these antichrists is to be guilty of the blood of Christ. This is serious; and the church has allowed political correctness, and not biblical truth, to shape what it says. “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” And teaching doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1) is definitely a sin. So, no, exposing is not considered corrupt communications. Not to expose is to disobey Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church.

  • bortmann

    Anonymous,

    One must be abiding in the doctrine of Christ to be saved. (1 John 1:9) None of the above preachers are saved anymore because they continue to teach heresies denying the Lord who once bought them. (2 Pet 2:1) And this isn’t a debate or arguing over doctrine- its exposing these heretics for who they are…enemies of the cross!!!

    Word of Faith preachers Benny Hinn, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Ken Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jessie Duplantis, and Rod Parsley openly teach the heresy Jesus became an unholy sinner on the cross by accepting the nature of Satan, died spiritually, suffered in hell for three days for our sins, and had to be born again when He resurrected from the dead. I ask you, where are our Christian leaders in their rebuke of such heretical blasphemy?

    These ministers teach the heretical blasphemy Jesus died spiritually and had to be born again. Tragically, this a perfect example of teachers trampling the blood of the Son of God underfoot that once sanctified them!! (Heb. 10:29)

  • bortmann

    Calvinism is one of the greatest heresies being sown in the body of Christ by teachers deceptively coming in Christ’s name. (Mat. 24:4-5, 2 Pet 2:1) Peter warned the church of such teachers teaching heresies denying the Lord that once bought them by His blood. (2 Pet. 2:1)

    • Adam Cummings

      I’ll venture to say the only heresy here is denying that man is sinful at birth and unable to come to God save for His electing grace, that salvation is His work, and that Christ died fully and completely for His sheep as John 10 and Hebrews 9-10 both teach. If Christ died salvifically for those in hell, we have a problem Scripturally. Keep in mind as well that you are calling Charles Spurgeon, Augustine, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and basically all the reformers and all the Puritans heretics. Scripture is not on your side.

      • bortmann

        The warnings not to be deceived and fall away or depart from the faith by Jesus (Mat. 24:4-5, 10) by the Holy Spirit (1 Tim. 4:1) by Paul (2 Thes. 2:3-4) by Peter (2 Pet. 2:1) and by John (1 John 3:7), are for believers. The unsaved can’t depart from a faith they never had!

        Seriously, how can unsaved people fall away from a faith they never had? A partaker of Christ is someone saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). One cannot continue to receive grace if they choose to deny their faith in Christ (2 Tim. 2:12, 2 Pet. 2:1)

      • NickM

        It seems Bortmann presses on with his own personal wrought salvation that he continues to hold and will bring himself to completion on that great day.

        Peter fell away- big time- but Jesus prayed for Him. Paul warns that the love of many will grow cold but that is not spiritual death regained.

  • Steve

    I agree with your points and am also troubled by the prosperity gospel.

    If I could add one suggestion – I think it would be really helpful if where you point out false doctrine you backed it up with Scripture and an explanation of what the correct doctrine should be, or at least an explanation of why the particular false doctrine is incorrect. I know that it would make this post even lengthier, but I think it would be very helpful because I’m sure that some people will read through those points and not understand why you’re calling them false doctrine.

    • bortmann

      Steve,

      HERETICAL QUOTE from Pastor Bill Johnson: “Did you know Jesus became a sinner for us and had to be born again.”

      The above heresy is being sown by deceiving spirits because if Jesus did become a sinner then He ceased to be the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Warning saints, anyone believing in such heresy is denying the Lord that once bought them by His blood and is lost in their sins. (2 Pet. 2:1)

      YouTube Bill Johnson [Bill Johnson False Teacher, T. 3:48-4:55]

  • Have Faith

    Your whining sounds like sour grapes. I listen to Olsteen, attend another church in the same city and also stir in the tenets of Catholicism. I have not once cast stones at these ministers that work to try to lift people out of the darkness in their lives. And I know many that have been helped. Yet I know some that had to migrate to a hell and damnation minister that berates them every week. Yet there teenagers in that church that used the color printer as a printing press for money and bought cars and more. Shows how well those warnings of damnation work. Taking that 10% mandatory tithing guaranteed their children a great future –with a history of federal crimes. That did not happen in Olsteen’s church,

    My husband and I periodically tune in just because of the upbeat messages. I get tired of being beating into submission like some plantation owner. This author must be a liberal voter that is trying to keep all on the farm instead of encouraging us to think outside of the box and actually prosper.

    • bortmann

      Joel Osteen teaches Hindus aren’t wrong for not believing in Jesus as their Savior?

      Is he a heretic? [Joel Osteen On The Gospel, T. 0:32-1:02]

    • Becky

      thank you
      If Joel is wrong in trying to lift my spirits by telling me how good God is, then I wont listen to any preachers…Since when are we suppose to believe that God doesn’t like us? God fearing christian? I don’t fear God, I don’t think he wants me to.Because of the many churches I have attended and even taught Sunday school at, and the many I’ve seen on tv…the ONLY ONE who makes me believe God is on my side, and his son (Jesus Christ) wants me to be happy and feel blessed, is Joel…He is wonderful…and in case it’s not known…I do not send him money, ever..and I don’t believe God will judge me for it. I also believe if a sermon isn’t interesting, I won’t be able to comprehend it…Joel is interesting, he throws in some funny, and he lifts me up, exactly what God chose for him to do…and I thank my Good Lord for it every time I watch a sermon of his. I’m inclined to believe that the author of this article might be a false prophet ???? I believe Jesus died to save me, and he loves me deeply, I do not believe in tithing, ( I don’t attend church..so many hyprocites and folks looking down on others) but if I ever have extra cash, I will give it to a person I know can use it, or a reputable charity. If I know someone needs something I posess, I will gladly give it to them, and that is how I tithe…and I’m sure God loves me for it!

    • Marcy Ryan

      It seems apparent that the preachers every one is mentioning are those whose ministries are blessed with enough money to be on tv. Thusly, we can tune in. Which is far better than what is out there. I live in a small town and just moved here to retire and would not move here until I knew TBN, WORD, DAYSTAR were here. As my christian faith has taught me, if I listen to HAGEE especially, I mark down the Scriptures and write them out and meditate. The availability of these programs produce a more faithful follower than the secular world So, where is the divide? Should not those of you who know scripture better than us approach privately wherein you think the falsehood lies? I think that would be more CHRIST-LIKE.

  • bortmann

    You would be stunned by how many professing Christians continue to defend the heresy being taught by Bill Johnson declaring Jesus became a sinner, ceased to be the Son of God, and had to be born again after He resurrected. It’s chilling to see their rational in defending a heretic that is denying the Lord that once bought him by His blood. His followers boldly declare we all know in part. In other words, one can’t understand or abide in the true doctrine of Christ. (2 John 1:9)

  • bortmann

    Have Faith,

    “…You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.” (Luke 16:15)

    TV host Larry King is Jewish. In this interview he asks Joel Osteen if a Jew will go to heaven if they don’t believe in Jesus.

    Joel replies only God can judge a person’s heart. This is his excuse not to tell Larry King he will be lost for eternity if he rejects the gospel.

    When asked if atheists go to heaven Joel says he doesn’t know. In front of millions of viewers, he refuses to stand for the gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter what a person believes; this revered pastor has no intention of making a righteous judgment.

    You can be sure God will judge the hearts of ministers denying the doctrine of Christ so they may be highly esteemed among men.

    • Nick

      Bortman… What do you make of the covenant that God made with Israel and the promises God made to Abraham in Genesis 17? I’d be a little less quick to assume the damnation of others, it seems you are picking and choosing from the Bible to fit your agenda

      • bortmann

        ‘Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.’ (2 John 1:9)

        Sadly, after hearing the above comments the past two days, its heartbreaking to see so many Christians that either don’t understand the importance of the doctrine of Christ or just don’t care about it.

        John wrote whoever transgresses and does continually abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. Only those abiding in the doctrine of Christ have the Father and His Son>

        THIS IS A SALVATION ISSUE MY FRIENDS. IT DOESN’T MATTER HOW MANY YOU HAVE LED TO THE LORD, HOW MANY YOU HAVE PRAYED OVER, HOW MANY YOU HAVE FED, OR HOW MANY MIRACLES YOU HAVE SEEN!!!

        JOYCE MEYER is a tragic example of a believer who once taught the doctrine of Christ yet now teaches for someone to be saved you must BELIEVE in the lie Jesus went to hell and suffered for three days (1 Cor 15:1-4), BELIEVE in the lie Jesus ceased to be the Son of God and had to be born again (John 3:18), BELIEVE in the lie a Christian can no longer sin (she says she she doesn’t sin anymore) (1 John 1:10)

        When confronted, even rebuked, she refuses to repent of these heresies. Yet believers on this page not only support her because of her good works they choose to turn their eyes away as she tramples the blood of Jesus underfoot while insulting the Spirit of Grace. (Heb. 10:29) You can even watch her teach the heresy she learned from her buddy Ken Copeland, “You don’t have God in you, you are one.”

        Joyce Meyer, who was once bought by the blood of Jesus, is now denying Him because of the above heresies she is sowing into the body of Christ worldwide. (2 Pet 2:1) Tragically we are seeing more and more false teachers like Meyer, Copeland, Hinn, and Johnson deceptively coming in Christs name while deceiving millions. (Mat. 24:4-5)

        “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God… if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6)

        Anyone teaching our precious Lamb of God, ceased to be the Son of God and had to be born again is putting Jesus to open shame. As long as they believe in this heresy it’s impossible for them to be renewed back to repentance. How frightening to see such a brainwashing from the enemy!

  • José Santiago

    Reblogged this on Misceláneos de José.

  • bortmann

    “And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel, and nothing else”-C. H. Spurgeon

    Afraid not, Charles, Calvinism is not the gospel!! Its the greatest heresy ever sown into the body of Christ by ministers deceptively coming in Christs name (Mat. 24:4-5)

    • NickM

      Wow you have consigned a lot of the greatest preachers to hell then- starting with the apostle Paul! Is there somewhere we can really debate your misplaced views Bortmann?

      • bortmann

        Nick, the apostle Paul never taught the heresy once a person is saved they can never deny their faith and fall away no matter how they sin (Gal. 5:13-21) or what they believe. (2 Pet 2:1) There are hundreds of passages exhorting believers not to be deceived and fall away (1 Tim 4:1, 2 Tim 4:3-4, Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20-22)

      • NickM

        Yes Bortmann, there are lots of warnings not to presume on our salvation and yet we have Christ’s own words “All that the Father has given to me shall come to me and no one shall pluck them from my hand” and Paul saying “I am confident, that he who began a good work in you WILL bring it to completion on that great day!”

        If my continuing to the end depended on me then I would surely be lost. But I am in Christ, held in His grip and neither death, nor life, angel or principality or power CAN ever separate me from the love of God. Paul also confirmed the great pattern of salvation for those God calls………29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

        Of course you can have no such comfort because all God did for you was rubber stamp your decision………….!

  • Josh

    Point #6 is untrue about Joyce Meyer (since she is clearly unregenerate), however it is very true about the born-again Christian (cf 2 Cor 5:17). The term “sinner” is never used in the New Testament to refer to a believer in Jesus Christ. Like every false teacher, she mixes in 99% truth with 1% deadly poison.

    • Rob

      Please don’t take my response as argumentative. It is hard to determine someone’s tone and context in type sometimes…so, this is a genuine question, not an excuse to argue with anyone…but what about when Paul refers to himself as “the chief sinner”? in I Timothy 1:15?

      • carel albertyn

        Hi Rob
        Sometimes the Greek writers used the present tense for a past event in order to increase the rhetoric effect. Paul’s point is not that he is a sinner, but how merciful God is. Please look at commentaries of most scholars they would mostly agree that Paul was referring to himself in his unsaved state. If you would consider his whole thought, he makes it clear that it is in that state of being ignorant to God and blasphemes that Christ reach out to him with mercy. So through his salvation God’s grace and mercy can be displayed.

  • bortmann

    Heretical quote of the day:

    “The Pope is a spokesman for the Christian faith as well as a staunch defender of the Christian faith.”

    Southern Baptist Leader Dr. Richard Land

  • Deon

    This article is wrong in so many AREAS it’s frustrating. I agree with bortman, Calvinism is a dangerous heresy.

    For the record, Joyce Meyers is right, I am not a sinner. I was a sinner, but I have been saved by grace, now Paul calls us saints. A sinner is an un-
    regenerated person, while a saint is one who has been redeemed by the blood of Christ. How could you have missed that in all your years at seminary?

    • bortmann

      I’m sinfree! Heretic Joyce Meyer

      “I’ll tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time. All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”

      Joyce Meyer (What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?)

      • bortmann

        This is another heresy Joyce Myers teaches: Jesus was the first born again man

        “God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus. He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man”

        Joyce Meyer (“The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make”)

    • NickM

      You mean you’ve been saved by grace and your work of faith to believe….and presumably your on-going efforts to persevere

    • Tbroussard

      Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:15 “It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I AM foremost of all.”

  • Andrew

    Bigots never think they are judging. NO, no…they are helping people. In reality, this man is using the celebrity of Joel and Joyce in an attempt to improve his own career.

    I do recall reading something about coveting somewhere…especially because it hasn’t been cleverly concealed in the least.

  • Anonymous

    Bogus, Out of Order, if you have an issue with someone, The word says, go to them! not use media or other vices to blast them!!! UnGodly and Out of order

  • Russell Woodbridge

    Great post and this is why I coauthored a book on the subject entitled Health, Wealth & Happiness: Has the prosperity gospel overshadowed the gospel of Christ? available on http://www.amazon.com. It affirms this post and goes into more detail.

    Russell Woodbridge

  • Andre Roberts

    I felt it was time to address this topic. Many topics elicit an emotional response when you disagree with someone that has been indoctrinated into a certain belief regardless of whether their belief is actually truth supported by scripture or not. I have witnessed believers often referring to themselves as a “sinner” or by the extended text of “sinner saved by grace”. Are these terms actually scripturally supported terms to refer to a believer in Jesus Christ?

    You may wonder, “Why is it a big deal what believers call themselves or other believers?”, but if it is not important, then why would God have inspired the scripture writers to call His children specific words? Obviously God has a huge interest in the terms His children refer to themselves as. Just as you would care about what your kids call themselves, God cares deeply about what His children call themselves. If your children are constantly calling themselves or others “stupid”, “loser”, “idiot”, “useless”, and other words like that, you would have an active interest in guiding them to change their perspective of themselves and others. That is the catalyst for me writing this, to help believers change their perspective of themselves from a negative to a positive.

    So let us begin and where better to start than with that word “sinner”. Did you ever wonder how many times the term “sinner” and “sinners” is used in the NT? I did. So, I researched it and I will list them all below. I will use the King James Version. This will include the usage before and after Jesus went to the cross for all of us.

    “Sinner”

    Luke 7:37 KJV And, behold , a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

    Luke 7:39 KJV Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying , This man, if he were a prophet , would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

    Luke 15:7 KJV I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth , more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    Luke 15:10 KJV Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

    Luke 18:13 KJV And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying , God be merciful to me a sinner.

    Luke 19:7 KJV And when they saw it, they all murmured , saying , That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

    John 9:16 KJV Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said , How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

    John 9:24 KJV Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.

    John 9:25 KJV He answered and said , Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know , that, whereas I was blind, now I see.

    Romans 3:7 KJV For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

    James 5:20 KJV Let him know , that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    1 Peter 4:18 KJV And if the righteous scarcely be saved , where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear ?

    “Sinners”

    Matthew 9:10 KJV And it came to pass , as Jesus sat at meat in the house , behold , many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

    Matthew 9:11 KJV And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

    Matthew 9:13 KJV But go ye and learn what that meaneth , I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Matthew 11:19 KJV The Son of man came eating and drinking , and they say , Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

    Matthew 26:45 KJV Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest : behold , the hour is at hand , and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

    Mark 2:15 KJV And it came to pass , that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

    Mark 2:16 KJV And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

    Mark 2:17 KJV When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Mark 14:41 KJV And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest : it is enough , the hour is come ; behold , the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

    Luke 5:30 KJV But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying , Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

    Luke 5:32 KJV I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Luke 6:32 KJV For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

    Luke 6:33 KJV And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

    Luke 6:34 KJV And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive , what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again .

    Luke 7:34 KJV The Son of man is come eating and drinking ; and ye say , Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

    Luke 13:2 KJV And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

    Luke 13:4 KJV Or those eighteen , upon whom the tower in Siloam fell , and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

    Luke 15:1 KJV Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

    Luke 15:2 KJV And the Pharisees and scribes murmured , saying , This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

    John 9:31 KJV Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

    Romans 5:8 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Romans 5:19 KJV For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Galatians 2:15 KJV We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

    Galatians 2:17 KJV But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid .

    1 Timothy 1:9 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    1 Timothy 1:15 KJV This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    Hebrews 7:26 KJV For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

    Hebrews 12:3 KJV For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

    James 4:8 KJV Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

    Jude 1:15 KJV To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed , and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    Each and every usage of the word “sinner” or “sinners” is used towards people before they come to a saving knowledge of Christ. You may be thinking “Hold on, you are missing one!”, but I’m not. Yes, you could say there is one instance where it appears to be used towards a believer, this would be Paul’s usage in 1 Timothy 1:15, but if we actually look at this verse in context we can clearly see Paul is actually speaking of his past. Bible scholars have made this same truthful conclusion for centuries.

    Now I am not saying that you will never commit a sin. You must allow Christ in you and the Holy Spirit to work and one day you will reach a place of no wrong doing in any way in the natural realm as well as supernatural, but it most likely will be when Jesus calls you home. You must always remember however your position and place of favor as a member of His Body. As a believer doing sin and being sin are two different things. A believer may commit a sin, but a believer is not a “sinner”.

    You may not agree with the fact that you are no longer a “sinner”, you may have been taught different, you may want to argue with me, but I am not the one who originally made this claim. God makes this claim about you, that you are not a “sinner”, in His word. So who do you think is actually right about who you are? God or your favorite teacher or pastor?

    Which leads us to now to a wonderful revelation into what God actually chooses to call His children in scripture.

    I did a lot of work already so now it’s your time to get into the word and look up for yourself what believers are referred as. It has been scripturally established that believers are not called “sinner” or “sinners”, but I just can’t leave you completely hanging. I just can’t help myself but to share a few with you. It’s so exciting to know who you really are, so I can’t hold back.

    Believer, body, brethren, bride, brother, called, children of God, chosen, chosen generation, church, disciple, faithful, heir of righteousness, holy nation, justified, light, peculiar people, righteous, royal priesthood, saints, salt, did I just go ahead and list them all? Can you find any more? If you do leave them in a comment below.

    God bless, and I hope now you will stop calling yourself a “sinner” which is no better than calling yourself, a child of God, “loser”, “ugly” or “worthless” and start calling yourself “beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” And “Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me to greet you.”

    • bortmann

      If any believer practices any of the sins of the flesh without repentance he will never inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal. 5:13-21)

    • raeolight

      actually if you want to be more accurate you need to use the New American Standard. It is the closest to the original texts that were written. KJV is incomplete because it was written without the oldest known texts at the time.

    • Tbroussard

      Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:15 “It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I AM foremost of all.”

  • Anonymous

    I can’t bleve u wat a croc of a article . Any one can manipulate sound and video to make it seem like something els. Shame u . I agree with Deon . Who r u going after next Joseph Prince . May what u have written came back 10 fold in a curs in the name of JESUS my u be set wright . O by the way I sent the web link to Joyce Meyer .

    • bortmann

      Read the deceptions Prosperity Teacher Joseph Prince falsely teaches:

      Grace and law are opposites (this lie was advocated by 2nd century heretic Marcion)!

      Asking forgiveness for sin is unnecessary for “believers.”

      Moses and Jesus taught opposite doctrines.

      The law brings condemnation (to the wicked) and therefore Jesus removed it.

      Preaching the law makes people sin more, therefore it should not be taught at church because it will harm your church congregations (better to leave them ignorant I guess).

      The gift of righteousness means we are righteous even if we are not. Believers have unconditional forgiveness.

      God was perpetually angry in the Old Testament and perpetually happy in the New Testament

      God does not judge nations for wickedness. If God judges people, cities and nations today, then He should apologize to Jesus for the cross

      Believers aren’t punished for sin

      We are not held more accountable to God when we know more, nor do we face greater punishment if we fail having known the truth, nor will we go through greater trials or tribulations as we draw close to God

      The Word of God doesn’t produce faith, only the Word of Christ

      The Word of God and the word of Christ don’t agree on some things

      Christian’s cannot commit the unpardonable sin

      Once saved, always saved

      Part of Jesus’ teaching is not applicable because it’s “Old Testament”

    • bortmann

      Anonymous,

      You trying to curse me in the name of my Jesus just shows how evil you are. This same spirit of Jezebel empowers false prosperity teachers to threaten believers not to come against God’s anointed.

      • bortmann

        Benny Hinn once rebuked his listeners not to mention the names of ministers; no matter how sinful they are. For anyone attacking him, he threatens their children will pay for it. What is the fruit of such evil manipulation? Believers are refusing to judge between those serving God and those who aren’t. For many, the mere mentioning of ministers in this book is somehow dividing the church. Then why did Paul, Peter, and John reveal the names of those using false doctrine to deceive (2 Tim. 4:10, 2 Pet. 2:15-16, 3 John 1:9-10)?

      • NickM

        I don’t think he was cursing you Bortmann. He was cursing the writer of the original article. How anyone can curse a child of God is beyond my understanding and way beyond Scripture.

  • Christina Borden

    Wow, Rick!
    Brave article!
    I have family members that grasp tightly onto this promise doctrine. It is ironic that at my new church, this last Sunday, our pastor also touched on this- very lightly- but he did just the same.

    Prosperity preaching is a dangerous doctrine, and in my experience, only leads to super wealthy church leaders with an envious flock below them. Those leaders keep their flock in check by spouting the promises, the words of faith, and call into question their lack of righteousness- because surely, if the flock were righteous, they would be basking in the wealth as well.

    I do believe there is power in words- THE WORDS. The words of Christ as we share them with each other and with unbelievers… and that power is not from us, but from God Himself, so we gain NO glory, but it can all be pointed back at Him.

    You are right, it is hard not to be in a struggle, especially when you see others doing so well, and not wonder- what are we doing wrong? how have we failed? is that why we are not having our prayers answered, or our dreams fulfilled? I know I struggle with that, and I do not buy into the promise preaching at all!

    As for the saint and sinner debate above me- I would like to remind everyone- I am a sinner till the day I die. However, God sees me as a saint. This does not mean, that I am not to be held accountable by my fellow Christians, and certainly does not mean that church leaders, pastors, and teachers should not hold me accountable.

    Until the day I am in Heaven with our Lord, I hope and pray there are Christians like Rick brave enough to call a spade a spade and set people like me back in the right track.

    God bless you, Rick!

  • Ramon Campos (@ELOHIMELELYON)

    Within my Gmail account are foul, abusive, blasphemous “Comments” made about CHRIST JESUS by those souls – homosexual – who Joel Osteen says he “believes” will ENTER INTO our HOLY FATHER’S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN.

    He doesn’t understand that souls need to have the desire in their heart to be DELIVERED from their sin IN REPENTACE in order to RECEIVE SALVATION: because pushing acceptance of their sin in unrepentance won’t even cause GOD TO CONSIDER FORGIVENESS for those souls – homosexual – unto condemnation.

    If he did: he WOULD KNOW that he too would enter into captivity for causing souls, which are not homosexual, to enter into captivity due to their putting their faith into his version of GOSPEL doctrine.

  • Anonymous

    Why are you preaching against other believers??? What a waist of your God given time and talent. Luke 9:50 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

    • Anonymous

      He’s not preaching against other believers, he is preaching against Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen. They are unregenerate heretics of the highest order. They preach another gospel, a false gospel, and will have to answer to God one day for perverting His Word. All the people on this thread that are supporting them and “calling” out the author of this article, I beseech you to take a long look at where you stand with God. To follow heretics like these, following people who do not know the Lord, are not born-again, what does that make your standing before God? We live a short time here on earth, 80 years is a long life, whereas eternity is forever, billions and trillions of years, where are you?

      • Becky

        Bortmanns preachings are wrong! Joel wants me to believe how good my God is. He wants me to know that whatever unfolds in my life, is Gods plan for me. Do you think Joel is such a wonderful preacher of the goodness and light of God by accident? I believe we need uplifting and feel good preaching, and that is what Joel delivers. I also know that I am saved, and I do good works.Jesus Christ saves me, and my faith in him is stronger than your words, for sure.

      • Anonymous

        Anonymous, I’m sorry, but you’ll have to answer to the Lord some day for your words. You sound like a Pharisee!!!! I wouldn’t want to be you on judgment day. You are definitely not sounding like someone who has an attitude that would draw anyone to the Lord. Examine your heart before the Lord. I suggest you focus your attention on what you can do to grow God’s kingdom instead of how you can cause division.

  • Melissa Morgan Glidden

    Jesse Duplantis is not only a major prosperity gospel evangelist, but a somewhat personal friend of my in-laws. I’ve met him before, as well, and seen him speak. I love my family, and when I met him he was as kind and warm as could be … but something has just never, ever felt right to me. My Jesus told me to sell everything and follow him … while Duplantis comes and goes in his private plane, living in an enormous house. I even listened to him tell our family about a couple of chandeliers he owns that were once the personal property of Napoleon. He says the Lord wants to bless us this way. And my family agrees. When I’ve tried to gently say, “Don’t you think he could do so much more for Christ’s people if he sold his house?” I’m told that I have “no idea how many millions he gives away charitably” or “to the ministry” and how “100% of the proceeds of his books/DVDs goes straight into the ministry,” which is something I also saw him say in person.

    And he is very kind, and my family is wonderful and I have so much respect for them … but I can’t handle the fact that they can’t see this. I know that I can’t say this for sure, but I’d like to think that if I came into a windfall of money that could take me completely out of debt and buy me a house just a couple of square feet bigger, just so my husband and daughter and I could stretch out a bit more, I’d be happy to invest the rest of it into the great commission … helping missionaries make ends meet, rehabbing homes on the south side of the city … why can’t Duplantis sell the plane and put the funds into struggling churches in his community? And then when he gets more money, instead of saying he’s blessed and buying yet another plane, let the Lord lead him to a missionary family – he could probably afford to pay them at least a decent year’s salary in one lump sum check, something to help them get through the year without burden, feed their families, and build and lead churches.

    I just don’t understand how someone looks at him and his “blessings,” yet ignores the fact that people are dying and suffering all around, sometimes right under our noses. How can this be okay? Why would God “bless” someone with a million dollars or more and expect that person’s brother to suffer needlessly because he doesn’t have enough faith? I don’t understand.

    Thank you so much for this. I want to post it on Facebook but I’m terrified of the uproar it would cause among family and I’m incredibly non-confrontational. However, I will post this on tumblr! I’ll also share this with my husband. He’s a bit feistier than me and will likely share.

    Thanks. :)

    • karen

      melissa, my uncle and his family are the same way. i believe in tithing but i dont believe you have to give it straight to the church. if i know of someone who needs food or their electric paid or whatever then i tithe directly to them. God knows i gave my 10% and that is all that i need to be right with Him. These ministers that are filthy rich….it is disgusting. as christians you can live a wealthy life but do you need a 20 bedroom mansion for 2 people and several $100,000 cars…i think not. there are people starving in their local communities. i dont care if they give millions to charity bc that million was given to a “church” and therefore should be used for charities to start with!! and pastors today wont preach on hell bc they are afraid of offending people. thats where this prosperity preaching came from anyways. if you do this _ you will have $ and go to heaven. no one wants to preach the truth about if you dont live a christian live and try to win souls for God then you will go to hell. plain and simple. its not politically correct to talk about hellfire and brimstone today so pastors dont.
      i’ll get off my soap box now. i will leave you with this….i learned a long time ago that so long as you try to make them see the light then you have done your job. you cant make them change but only show them the right way to do something. and as hard as it is to know your loved ones might not go to heaven bc they are blind some times all you can do is pray that God will move them in the right direction before that day comes.

  • Anonymous

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

    – Mahatma Gandhi

  • Mary

    This is why non believers are turned off. I thought the devil was the enemy. Jealous Much?

  • Anonymous

    Rick Henderson Pastor of Adult Ministries at South Mountain Community Church, in Draper, Utah how can u be so soso hhhhhhhhhhhh the words lake me falls accusing .

  • Anonymous

    Are u jelys of them is tha yu wright this article

    • Russell Harvey

      It doesn’t seem like he is jealous.
      It was aimed at the doctrine they teach which is spread to many people.

      Wherever Wheat is sown, the devil sows tares, which look just like wheat.
      We are suppose to be able to tell the wheat from the tares. If someone is spreading a false doctrine in the name of Jesus that does not follow the Bible’s teachings, should we do nothing about it?

  • Anonymous

    God bless Joyce and Joel

    • bortmann

      “I don’t sin anymore, do you?” Joyce Meyer
      What happened on the Way to the Cross by Joyce Meyer

      In this interview Larry King asked Joel Osteen if atheists go to heaven Joel says he doesn’t know. In front of millions of viewers, he refuses to stand for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

      Youtube- Joel Osteen on the Gospel Cannot Make Up His Mind

      • Rilla Thomas

        We should never judge who will go to heaven God did not die and leave us judge and jury,the Bible say’s judge not lest you be judged.

  • Anonymous

    Sounds like someone is upset they have not figured out you can praise god, and make a good living at the same time.. Just because you want to believe in god, doesn’t mean you must put on the whoa as me, suffering and broke and mentality. Personally, I don’t “worship” with Joel, but I do find his message uplifting and perhaps, just perhaps, that’s what the world needs to hear right now.. that you CAN go out and MAKE it happen, you can choose your best life, or you can choose to be a victim and ask why god isn’t helping you. Nothing in the bible says we need to be so 100% dependent on god providing every little thing for us and our wishes.. you know, he’s a busy guy.. as a human race, we could stand to do a few things on our own.

    • bortmann

      Joel Osteen teaches Hindus aren’t wrong for not believing in Jesus as their Savior?

      Is he a heretic? [Joel Osteen On The Gospel, T. 0:32-1:02]

    • Russell Harvey

      We have been given resources, which we should use, but we must remain connected to God as he is THE source.

      The thing is, there are wealthy Christians who use what they have been given responsibly. However, there are also teachers who are wealthy who are NOT responsible with what they have.

      Plenty of people teach an uplifting message without changing the doctrine of the bible. What the world needs to hear is the gospel.

  • bortmann

    Joel Osteen speaks heresy by declaring Mormon’s are Christians in this exclusive interview with The Washington Times.

    “I believe Mormons are Christians. I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Romney – and I’ve never met him – but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues. I’m sure there are other issues that we don’t agree on. But you know, I can say that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Catholics don’t all agree on everything. So that would be my take on it.

    Rick Warren Billy Graham and Joel Osteen each told Larry King Mormons are Christians! Mormon’s who deny the virgin birth, deny the divinity of Jesus while He was on earth, deny triune nature of God (Trinity), deny eternal lake of fire, and believe the heresy they will become God when they die. To say Mormons are part of the body of Christ is heretical and blasphemy!

    • Emily

      Bortmann, I think what you say is sooo true about so many TV evangelists but can you tell me one that is true to the Gospel? Is there any?

      • Russell Harvey

        We all mess up, but not all of us are people who spread blatant twistings of the Gospel.

        The devil sows tares among the wheat. We must learn to distinguish which is which.

    • Garth

      Mormon’s don’t deny the virgin birth. Mormons don’t deny the divinity of Jesus but only claim he was not God the Father. Mormons do not deny the triune nature of God but define it as most Christians did in the first 2 centuries AD, (Arius) as United, not Triune. They do not deny hell, but claim there are other levels between heaven and hell. They do believe in eternal progression as a theoretical possibility, not to replace God, but to become “like” him, which was also an early Christian concept. So, yes, Mormons are part of the body of Christ and fit many of the 1st and 2nd century concepts before Nicea. Mormons reject the “creeds”. They don’t reject “Christianity.” Many Christian theologians know this but the great unwashed masses don’t know their facts about Mormon theology. (Your comments are a case in point.) Mormons are non-creedal Christians. Also called “restorational Christians.”

    • sam

      Wow Bortmann, you really don’t know as much as you think you do. Your probably right though, all those learned preachers don’t know anything, and your hatred of Mormons is right. I mean just because anyone claims Jesus Christ as their Savior does that make them Christian? not to burst your bubble, but Jesus Christ is the only way to return to God… and I’m a Mormon mu hahahaha! I don’t’ need you to call me a Christian. You can say I’m not Christian, and I’m not mad, though Jesus Christ is my personal Savior and Redeemer.

  • Michelle

    Wonderful, wonderful article. Only thing missing is another false teacher named Rick Warren of Purpose Driven Life fame. Thank you for standing for what is right, not what is popular.

  • Becky

    I must disagree…Joel lifts me up with his preaching, and gives my faith many lifts..he has made me be a kinder, gentler, more faithful person than I ever thought I could be. He has made me more compassionate, and helped me to realize that God does want all of us to prosper, and seek him to show us the way. Nothing will ever change my mind, and God told me to write this… I am not rich money wise, and never wished to be, my blessings are many though, and if ever a time comes when I am rich, monetarily, I will use to help others and to save homeless pets…so say what you will…Joel Osteen is a very much loved gift from the good LORD above, and I thank the Good Lord above for sending him my way!

    • Look at Christ

      Joel has lifted you up??? Or GOD has? While I believe Joel and Joyce to be false prophets-gaining glory for themselves in Jesus name, I have no doubts that GOD still touches lives- even through them- such as yourself. However, your comment proves the fatality of Joel’s preaching- it points to him and not to Jesus.

    • Michael

      Remember brother and sisters God’s standards are according to law where mind set is needed and not by what you feel emotionally…

    • Michael

      Becky, it was not Joel who made you kinder… it was your decision. God only used him. I’m neutral to this subject, but it must be God to be recognized not Joel.

    • Russell Harvey

      A lot of people can make you feel good, and even act better.
      The problem with Joel Osteen is that he preaches a twisting of the Gospel.

      The devil sows tares among the wheat. His most dangerous form is as an angel of light! We must be able to tell the difference between wheat and tares.

      MANY false teachings, even non Christian ones, have made people act nicer or feel better about themselves. This does NOT mean they are true.

  • bortmann

    Rick Warren Billy Graham and Joel Osteen each told Larry King Mormons are Christians! Mormon’s who deny the virgin birth, deny the divinity of Jesus while He was on earth, deny triune nature of God (Trinity), deny eternal lake of fire, and believe the heresy they will become God when they die. To say Mormons are part of the body of Christ is heretical and blasphemy!

  • Anonymous

    While I understand why you would want to expose false teachers, wouldn’t it be better to just present truth and let it speak for itself!!! Jesus would say you brood of vipers as a general term to those teaching falsely but did he call out specific names!!! Idk I just think we do more damage to the kingdom pointing fingers, why not just speak truth and let people hear it for themselves

    • bortmann

      Then why did Paul, Peter, and John reveal the names of those using false doctrine to deceive (2 Tim. 4:10, 2 Pet. 2:15-16, 3 John 1:9-10)?

      • sam

        Well I suppose the right answer in each of those cases is, the Apostles were told by God to do it, since God is the Judge, not any mortal man, now it’s scripture so we can read it today… did God tell you to Rick Henderson to call anyone out by name? I’m not calling you out, I’m glad you are Christian, same team, same team :)

  • Jeff Agnew

    I convinced a colleague of the error of this doctrine once by saying, “The foxes of the field have their dens, and the birds of the air their nests but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head; you mean to tell me you’re holier than Jesus?”

  • Anonymous

    Of course I always believed prosperity theology was no in the least bit part of the gospel Altho what he says is true he didn’t seem to get the very strongest quotes that proved his point. Bottom linr giving to get is not the reason to give or help,
    altho the blessing are far greater than financial “Give and it shall be given unto you is biblical but includes far more than material
    l blessing

  • 'Exhorting and Refuting...' | a blog by YouTube's 'NotYourTypicalNegro'

    The teachings of Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar and others has been documented and warnings shouted from the rooftops for decades now. But pastors refused to listen and turned their backs on their responsibilities to protect God’s flock and promote sound doctrine.

    Creflo Dollar Said 4 Years Ago All CHRISTIANS GET RICH in 2012!

    • bortmann

      Creflo Dollar pastors World Changers Church International in College Park, Georgia. He teaches a believer is God because Jesus said it. When Jesus spoke of ‘ye being gods’ He was referring to believers judging with the same authority He received from His Father (John 10:34-36). Jesus was not saying those believing in Him will become God. There is only one God (1 John 5:7). It was the serpent who told Eve the lie you shall be like God. Yet, Dollar teaches Adam was God. Obviously, God created Adam and Eve as humans. Both sinned and were spiritually separated from God. This is why the Father sent His only begotten so all believing in His Son may be saved for eternity (John 3:16).

      • Davy

        ALL who call themself Christian have teached falsehood about God. Therefore all are false teachers. Theology is full of false teaching but worshiped as truth by men who are not led by the Holy Spirit. God does not curse or slander His creation. God does not call people names like false teacher. These words come from the evil in men’s hearts. Romans 2:1 is truth and God will bring it to pass. —You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgement on someone else, for whatever point you judge another you are condemning yourself v4 or do you show CONTEMPT to the riches of His kindness, forebearance and patience.–Contempt against the King of Kings. Every careless word you’ve uttered shall now be brought into judgement by God.

  • stewartben

    Lets spend our time and energy spreading our light, and not pointing out who “we” think is or isn’t a false teacher. God will sift and judge. Not us, flawed human beings. For all the thoughts on this page, where are the ones that show love and understanding? God is bigger than Joel, Joyce, you and I. And I know He has it under control. We’ve got a lost world, and there’s no time to count dollars and connect dots. They…will pass away.

    • bortmann

      Amen TGR,

      “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.” (Mat. 7:15)

      David Wilkerson was the former pastor of Times Square Church in New York City. In this message he is warning against wolves dressed like sheep.He has witnessed the heresies prosperity teachers are using to divide the church. He is shocked by how many believers are being led away from the truth. No one should be listening to anyone claiming to be a Christian that denies Jesus as the only begotten Son of God!

      Youtube Prosperity Gospel Bursts Pastor David Wilkerson

    • bortmann

      So many could care less how many millions of Christians are being deceived by such false teachers sowing heresies denying the Lord. Laurie your unloving post is a typical talking point of a Pharisee.

    • Susan Y. Gilbert

      Stewartben….I totally agree with you! We have become lazy Christians by allowing the sifted gospel to be poured down our throats. IMHO, we as Christians are required to read above and below the scriptures presented to make sure what is being taught is not taken out of context. It is our responsibility to read, study and absorb the gospels. Then we will be able to discern the truth from heresy.

    • Tracy

      My thoughts exactly. I wish more Christians had this attitude. The world might see a decline in atheism with a little more love and a little less finger pointing and criticizing.

    • candy

      The Bible says in the last days there will be false teachers and even those who are close to God will fall victim to the false teachers. We are also to discern for ourselves and the only way to do that is to study the Word ourselves. We are so close to the end times….someone needs to warn others about these false teachers!

      • John W

        Haven’t there been false teachers since the beginning? Why now? Someone needs to answer that. People have been saying we’re “so close to end times” for thousands of years.

  • Tommy

    I love those who attack Gods anointed! You should go back to not calling people out!! Remember what it did for Jimmy Swaggart!!

    • bortmann

      Tommy,
      To actually say Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer are somehow Gods anointed is to trample the blood of Jesus underfoot and insult the Spirit of Grace (Heb. 10:29)

  • henbeatsfox

    There are a lot of mainline pastors who as a matter of practice completely agree with #5 re Joyce. ” She teaches that you need special revelation from God to understand what she teaches because it is NOT contained in the Bible.” I hear a lot from mainliners who would affirm things not in the Bible or deny things that are, and all because they have “the testimony of the Spirit” which has a different, more enlightened message for our day. Odd to think they and Meyer have this in common.

  • Anonymous

    Men that post articles such as this one are the reason that the church is in such a fragile state in today’s society. Because instead of building up, they choose to tear down. I can guarantee that if I were to go back through every sermon or statement Rick has said, or printed I could find plenty of false doctrine. Don’t release articles unless you are willing to directly put the blame on yourself as well.

    • bortmann

      “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.” (2 Pet. 2:1)

      Exposing false teachers like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer, who are teaching destructive heresies denying the Lord who once bought them by His blood is an act of love to the church.

      • bortmann

        When He gave His life on the cross, the Son of God defeated Satan and took back the keys to the kingdom. Even so, Jesus called the Devil the ruler of this world (John 14:30).

        One can see the evidence of demons deceiving those who were once bought by the blood of Jesus (2 Pet. 2:1). Today, more and more Christians are deemphasizing the responsibility of a believer by blaming the Devil. They say they aren’t to be blamed for their willful sinning; instead it was Satan deceiving them. This is one reason of many why the church is steeped in such horrific compromise,

      • Anonymous

        You say they teach heresy. I have a masters in theology that says otherwise.

      • anonymous

        It isnt YOUR place to do so, who are YOU??
        I could find tons of scriptures to dispute the accusations
        youve made against them. Esp Joel. Some people are gifted to encourage, some are gifted to lead people to the cross. Some are gifted to help teens, some are gifted to minister to hurting widows, etc Personally I know several people who refuse to listen to any preacher/teacher/minster, because they are so condemning. However, they WILL/DO watch Joel. Because he teaches LOVE, period. If you’ll dig in your word, that is what Jesus is, LOVE, and His father longs to bless us.
        And, the more we BELIEVE and KNOW that, then that is exactly what we’ll get.
        However, when we profess criticisms, negativity (hence this article in its entirety ) , then that is what you will reap. but a heart of love, forgiveness, and prayerfulness (for those that may be mislead, but not the two youve focused on. they do know the Lord. however muslims, buddhists, etc) , and professing God’s word of blessing over our lives, thats what we’ll get. His word says, He will over take us with blessings everyday. but it is our own faults who dont get that. Because of a critical spirit maybe??
        and by the way, Jesus DID become sin, so that we could be forgiven. I couldve fallen over when i read your nit pick that He didnt, read the basic gospels!

        At least these ppl are getting people saved, and leading them to being freed from failure, and past hurts. Why in the world would you come against that? That is what Jesus stands for? WHy arent you out there trying to get people saved, atheist, agnostics, people who worship nature, greek gods, and Buddha? I dont understand this at all.

      • Michael

        There are also ppl who were sent to give warnings… God is powerful and all knowing. Now if a dog speak against these two people will you be convinced?

        On the other hand, some statements here are emotionally based. The truth is forgotten because they were touched by stories of these two people. Paul said renew your mind sets. he never stated renew your feelings.

        The Law of God must be followed by mind… not by the heart…

  • tatata

    Jesus was made irrelevant when everyone put him on a pedestal and kicked him upstairs. Find out who you are! Then you might understand the gospels. Until then your clinging to faith is simply a lack of it.

  • Cindy Alewine

    While I don’t agree with some of the things you’ve said or the spirit in which they were said, I do believe this is a great example of why we need to know God and His Word for ourselves. We cannot rely on other humans to save us.

  • kdmiller55

    Reblogged this on musings and commented:
    This is a great take on two of the most influential and well-known TV preachers today. This is a must-read for every serious-minded believer. Paul warned us about this in 2 Timothy 4:3.

  • Sydney Baxter

    I can’t, and won’t, claim any great knowledge of the Bible or Christianity. However, I’m pretty sure that God and Santa Claus are two different things. I’m also pretty sure that motivation cannot be hidden forever, and that an inordinate percentage of charismatic public figures could be clinically diagnosed as sociopaths–people who have little regard for the rights, needs, or well-being of others.

  • TGR

    I spent the first 32 years of my life in prosperity-teaching churches before the Lord delivered me from that theology, as I sought Him in His Word and in prayer. On the day of my deliverance, one Sunday morning, our congregation was making its “confession” (which had NOTHING to do with confessing sin). We were “calling in” our wish list, naming things one-by-one, as we did every time we came together…. “Come in new carpet, Seats fill up, Come in new warehouse (to store all of our Hallelujah night decorations),” etc., etc. It was a lengthy mantra. I had already been sensing that I shouldn’t make this “confession” with the rest of the assembly, so that morning I just listened as everyone else repeated the verbiage. The Lord showed me what I believe was a vision before my spiritual eyes… very real… just spiritual. I saw in front of me, a big black cauldron with five witches, dressed in Halloween-style black robes and pointy hats. Each of them held a large stick in their hands, with which they were stirring the contents of the pot, as the congregation kept chanting. I know beyond a shadow of doubt, the Spirit of the Lord said clear as a bell to me, “It’s witchcraft. It’s witchcraft. It’s witchcraft.” And, I knew that He was referring to “calling in” all the things we wanted.

    The assembly tried to justify their actions by taking a number of scriptures out of context and quoting them along with the “confession.” The pastor, proudly mentored by John Osteen (Joel’s father) insisted and followed the “logic” that because God called things that be not as though they were when He created the world, we should do the same. After all, Jesus is God and we’re all supposed to follow His example, right?

    I share this because I know precious people who have fallen away from the Truth because they believed this false gospel and had no real root. When they extended their faith and really believed that things were going to work out in bad or tough situations, and things fell apart instead, they thought the gospel was a lie, because they had been taught that if they had enough faith, they would get what they asked God for, or named and claimed. So, they forsook the Truth, feeling like God had forsaken them.

    But, bad things do happen to good people. Just consider Job. By the way, I was discouraged from reading the book of Job by well-meaning prosperity followers (in my own family) when I went through hardships. Fortunately, I finally listened to the Spirit of God in me and read it, much to my own relief and blessing! How wonderful to know that I’m not the only person who has endured hard things and I am still loved by God, despite my sometimes lack of faith (we only need a mustard seed worth – He’s capable of the rest). How awesome that God walks with us in those times and makes us strong through the power of His might, His strength. And, how beautiful it is that even when we experience great loss, He heals the broken-hearted. He is faithful, even though we don’t understand why some things turn out the way they do.

    I could go on, but it’s getting late. Blessings to you for calling out these false prophets, which I believe they are. 2 Peter 2:1-3

  • Blair

    Ive always thought of those two as false teachers, but wanted to read what you had to say. You lost me at “John Piper does a great job of…” He too is a false teacher.

  • Laurie Dasso

    Sounds like sour grapes to me. People respond to the message from one person maybe better than another. Maybe the message that one of these has touched a place in someone who was unreachable more so than your approach. Tearing down others because they are successful or because you don’t happen to agree is disgusting and I can see why you are nowhere near these two as far as reaching an audience of listeners who want to learn more about the word of God. Just because YOU say it, doesn’t make it true. Same for all of these pandering, hypocritical comments I’m reading. You people make me sick.

    • bortmann

      Laurie,

      “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of
      demons.” (1 Tim. 4:1)

      What makes me sick is professing Christians like you (pharisees) defending those who are deceiving millions of believers worldwide. Saying the prosperity heresies are somehow successful in Gods eyes is a lie from the pit of hell. Those protecting these charlatans are being seduced by deceiving spirits through doctrines of demons.

    • Kent

      How do we know which ones are false and which ones to listen to? Same goes for our hometown ministers. Some are very persuading.

    • Becky

      Thank you Laurie

    • anon

      i agree………..

  • bortmann

    Word of Faith preachers Benny Hinn, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Ken Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Jessie Duplantis, and Rod Parsley openly teach the heresy Jesus became an unholy sinner on the cross by accepting the nature of Satan, died spiritually, suffered in hell for three days for our sins, and had to be born again when He resurrected from the dead. I ask you, where are our Christian leaders in their rebuke of such heretical blasphemy?

  • bortmann

    Laurie,
    The time has come to expose false teachers deceiving millions of Christians worldwide. The ministers below boldly DENY Jesus as the only Begotten Son of God. (John 3:16) This is not just an incorrect interpretation; it’s a heretical doctrine that separates salvation by any Christian being deceived by it (John 3:18). I challenge you to view YOUTUBE clips below and see how well known ministers are deceptively coming in Christs name (Mat. 24:4-5) while sowing heresies denying the Lord that once bought them by His blood!!! (2 Pet. 2:1)

    Paul Crouch [Ye Are Little Gods False Trinity Teachers Speak, T. 0:47-1:15]

    Larry Huch [False Prophets In The Last Days, T. 0:01-0:17]

    Paula White [False Prophets In The Last Days, T. 0:01-0:17]

    Creflo Dollar [Little Gods Do Their Thing Today, T. 1:01-1:29]

    Benny Hinn [The Heretical Teachings Of Benny Hinn, T. 0:01-0:42]

    Ken Copeland [Word of Faith Teachings... Heretical, T. 1:10-10:49]

    Bill Johnson [Bill Johnson False Teacher, T. 3:48-4:55]

  • Anonymous

    I personally watch Joel osteen and Joyce Meyer. Their words bring me comfort and peace. I have been raised in church my entire life and raised by a Christian mother that preached the same to me as they do. I personally find your print repulsive and pray that you might reevaluate your words and try to lead people more to Christ rather than drawing attention to yourself. Do you really proclaim to be a preacher or a Christian? I will pray for peace and forgiveness for you brother, for you are not what would lead me to Christ…I think I would run! Praying for you!

    • bortmann

      Anonymous,
      Sadly most of your posts are not biblical. You shouldn’t be judging anyone, much less asking if someone is saved. Your defense of ministers trampling the blood of Jesus underfoot is not only repulsive, its from Satan.

      When Joel Osteen tells Larry King the heresy Hindu’s love God and they are not wrong for not believing in Jesus, does this mean anything to you?

      When Joyce Meyer teaches the heresy Jesus became a sinner and had to be born again like believers, does this mean anything to you? If it doesn’t your lost in your sins as you worship these enemies of the cross.

    • truthavails

      Me too.. Your hate is showing through….For someone who claims to be a Christian where is the love of Christ in you ?
      Has God spoken to you, as He did to His prophets in ages past >? Did He command you to defend Him before men ?
      IF He didn’t then, you’re a lone ranger and apostasy is your middle name.
      Jesus Christ said that whoever was free from of sin, they could cast the first stone, so you would us believe that you are free of sin ?

      And lastly, when I look at your “rants” I’m reminded of the word COVET.. For clarification, it means that you have sour grapes, because they have something that you feel you deserve, so you are going to put on a wee tantrum with something that will grab the attention of those whom who profess to represent, so that YOU will be remembered, not Christ.
      No matter how well your words are honeyed..it is not for you to judge brothers and sisters in Christ.. You are to forgive and ask the Lord to bless them.

      When you go the media to air your grievances, you are playing court to satan, so who really do you represent ?

      What are you when your mask is removed ?

  • Mindy Hurst

    I have family and friends who love both of these people! But I never really cared for either one of them and I really couldn’t say way. I just would get a bad feeling in my stomach when I watched either of these people. Now I know why! Thank you for pointing this out.

  • Anonymous

    He warned us that people would heap false teachers unto themselves, “having itching ears.”

  • Stacy Jackson

    The BIBLE is the BIBLE no matter who is preaching from it. It does say in the BIBLE do not judge. It does say in the BIBLE but not in these words DO NOT MESS WITH THE CHILDREN OF GOD. What you did in this article was not only mess with GOD’S children but TRY to destroy something you think is wrong. You as a human have no power to judge no anyone. You can not say there way is wrong and your way is right because you are not God. You can do all the studies you want just like a scientists does but does the Bible ever change? Is God real? Do not make religion so unbearable that no one wants to put up with it anymore.

  • bortmann

    Stacy,

    If Christians aren’t supposed to judge other Christians, that we should leave all judging up to God like more and more ministers are teaching today, then what does Paul’s exhortation to judge and disciple below mean?

    ‘Now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (1 Cor. 5:11-13)

  • bortmann

    For decades, the news media, television, movies, and universities, have bombarded Christians with this message: don’t judge lest you be judged. Let us discern the demonic spirit using this ploy. The wicked will never love anyone judging their rebellion against God. The world will hate you if you teach what Jesus taught. This is why so many are not willing to take a stand for righteousness anymore.

  • Wore out

    Wooooaaahhhh, what an intense 5-minute read. I can see why you were afraid no one would finish the whole thing.

  • Cheryl R. Thomas

    Hopefully, you will write a blog calling out John Piper for being a false prophet for his twisted views of women.

  • kelvin

    Truth is, they might have such ideology which does not go with yours, but instead of putting it on media, you should meet and correct them. if you really claim you are a true believer, you won’t be judging them, bible says judge not, so as not to be judge. Please make them know their heresy rather than disgracing the church of God, this is exactly why muslim are better off, they are greatly united even with different ideologies. May God help you more, but using this public disgrace of church is against the law of God

    • bortmann

      If Christians aren’t supposed to judge other Christians, that we should leave all judging up to God like more and more ministers are teaching today, then what does Paul’s exhortation to judge and disciple below mean?

      ‘Now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (1 Cor. 5:11-13)

  • Anonymous

    Wow… these 2 people lead others to a saving knowledge of Jesus on a scale that a very small few will ever achieve… why would you spend time tearing them down if you are as you say a “Friend of Jesus Christ and desperate to introduce Him to others.” You also say “Let’s love well, think hard and wander together in the messy affair of GRACE.” Where is that grace in this situation… the people that follow Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer are saved. There are millions of others who need to hear about the love of Jesus, but NOT how we can’t love each other and show each other GRACE!

  • rickyjenkins

    i certainly agree…and i definitely encourage more pastors teaching/protecting their flocks with warnings against false prophets and heresy. but the world wide web seems like a medium that’s a few steps beyond how Jesus might’ve addressed other professing believers. my sense is, this article is great, IF you’ve reached out to these people you’ve named. all i think about is the 1 or 2 non-Christians that will read this post…not worried about the lionshare of us who agree. to those non-believers doesn’t this seem potentially divisive in their eyes? my question is pastor, have you tried to personally reach out to these leaders before ‘calling them out’ online? i just think we (believers) would do well to be hesitant to call out names of other professing believers in so public an arena w/o at least trying to pursue these people with some sense of invitation to talk about these serious issues. i guess i’d cite matthew 18 here. i apologize for sounding like a legalist if that is coming across…but i don’t see Jesus calling out Pharisees He didn’t first pursue in person on some level.

  • Anonymous

    i don’t agree with you. almost every person involved in the writing of the Bible gained something from God for thier sacrafice. Even if it was eternal life. DAvid became a King. Ester became a nations hero and as a woman in those times, well done! Kings prospered for standing up to God’s cause. A sacrafice was made and if it wasn’t for God calling out his people none would have been extrodanary. As a person with family memebers doing missionary work in india < you would know Joyce is almost the only woman to have begun a very sucessful ministry there, and with the grace of God Jesus is entering the lives of a lot of lost non believers and abused woman. So instead of beging critical. Get off your butt and get to the real business of faith, reaching out to people who are hopeless.

    • Nick

      Would love to know where prosperity gospel folks hide the Book of Job. Certainly doesn’t quite fit the agenda does it?

    • Tab

      Joyce is not even close to being the only woman to have begun a successful ministry in India. Amy Carmichael comes to mind immediately, but even more recently, before Joyce went there, I have known many many women in my 50 years who have ministered fruitfully there.

  • Eva

    Reblogged this on The Aspirational Agnostic and commented:
    I posted this on the FB page, it I need to put it here too; it’s seriously good stuff. Long, but worthwhile.

  • thornlessrose7

    Very interesting reading, and well documented points. Many of your concerns are valid, but some are those which Jesus made pretty clear we were to leave alone and allow the Lord to handle upon His return. People do get genuinely saved as they listen to Ms. Meyer and Mr. Osteen. I respect your concerns for those without the Biblical literacy to discern error, but would hesitate to believe (or state) that either of these people are not being used by God.

    I pray for both of these individuals because I know Joel was raised to know better than he preaches (John Osteen was a true man of God), and somehow I have hope the truth will one day win out in the son as it did in the father. Joyce is a product of her experiences and her theology is largely the result of her exposure to those who helped raise her up from her early challenges. I am hopeful that prayer is the answer for this person, as well.

    One thing I must mention: I love Hank Hanegraaff as a brother in the Lord and admire his scholarship about many things. I listened to him daily for many years, until he came out as a preterist, and that was the end of my being able to trust his teachings. I am surprised you would rely on his judgment regarding Joel, though I admit his take on the ministry seemed dead on. > Peace

  • Anonymous

    great piece.

  • Sky

    I learn that you aren’t supposed to talk about these people but pray for them. I’ve seen other pastors on Youtube actually tear apart Joel’s book while laughing at him and mocking his work. Isn’t that pastor even more worse than what you think Joel is? Instead of talking about Joel and making fun of him, he was supposed to pray for him. It sounded like pure jealousy. How do you know that Joel isn’t a Christian? It is a sin to bear false witness. Why call them out? Why not pray for them to do what is right? I like Joel’s optimism. I used to go to a church that preached fire and brimstone and God is a wrathful God and He will strike you dead for any sin. I know God forgives. He’s not waiting for us to make the smallest mistake so he can wipe us out. I give 10% of my money every month. I know that some people question where their money is going. If they think it might not be used for the purpose it was intended for, they stop giving. I think that if you give your tithes with a full heart, you will be rewarded and blessed even if the money wasn’t used honestly. You can’t pay your tithes all the while doubting it’s going to help. You can’t doubt and have faith at the same time. I like Joel. I’ve read the Bible. But while I love Joel’s positive messages, I listen to God first. I refuse to judge Joyce on whether or not God speaks to her often. How would you know? How would I know? The truth is that you can only assume and that is also wrong. I don’t know if you’ve met them or know them personally but if you say something that you aren’t sure is even true, that’s gossiping. And these stories always have a way of being altered every time it passes from one person to another. I enjoy Joel but that doesn’t mean I am gullible. I know what’s in the Bible and I follow it first. I just like his upbeat ways and the way he tries to lift your spirits. Like not letting people get you down. If Joel can lead someone to the Bible and to God, I don’t see a problem. I know that we have to listen’s to God’s word and not man’s. I have had dreams where God had shown me things that were going to happen. One of the dreams I had last year actually happened just months later. I just know when a dream is just a dream and I let it go. But I know when to write down these dreams. I just get a strong feeling that I need to record it along with date and time. These dreams are very clear and detailed. I think God reaches people in different ways and I don’t make guesses if it’s true or not that it happened. I concentrate on my own life and things I need to change. But I don’t have time to poke holes in other people’s lives. We have to seek our own salvation with fear and trembling.

    • Tracy

      Excellent post sky! Alot of these comments give more of an aggressive approach which in turn looks alot like a religious spirit. Nothing entertains non believers more than watching christians tear each other apart. You simply do not know what is in a persons heart or their relationship with God. A religious spirit somehow knows all though…

    • Pat

      You are a Zealot! and a Bore!!!

  • LeAnne

    Thank you for your rich words of insight! I dismissed Joel Olsteen a long time ago because I knew his teaching and preaching were wrong, especially about finances and wealth. I rarely listen to Joyce Meyer, so I am not familiar with her ministry personally, but have many friends and family members who do. I will be forwarding this to them in the hopes that their eyes will be opened. Satan loves to masquerade, doesn’t he?

  • Andrew

    I would respectfully have to disagree with this article– I have attended several Joel Osteen crusades and church services- I have seen more people saved in one meeting than the writer of this article has probably had saved his entire ministry. I caution people against speaking out against ministers this way because the bible says do not touch my annoited and he is walking on thin ice doing this— he cant say they work for the devil because the devil sure does not want thousands of people saved and healed= so clearly these people are annointed by God and these ministries will account for thousands of souls in heaven. I used to call ministry partners for the Osteen ministries and thank them for thier support– I literally had hundreds of people tell me testimony after testimony on how there lives were changed- alcholism, broken marriages restrored, and on and on that these minitries impact lives for the good. We have a personal family member who was given 3 weeks to live and she sought out Joyce Meyer– went to one of her meetings, listened to the word, and was prayed for– she was instantly healed and is still fine today 5 years later. He may not like what they preach but the message is effective and its reaching the masses.

    • bortmann

      Andrew,
      You say some may not like what Joel teaches?

      You mean when Joel says Hindus are not wrong for not believing in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?

      You mean when Joel says Mormons are Christians, part of the body of Christ, and are going to heaven when they die?

      You mean when Joel says he doesn’t know if atheists will go to hell?

      You mean when Joel says if Jews who don’t believe in Jesus will go to hell?

      You mean when Joel says Oprah is a Christian who loves the Lord?

      On and on….

      • Susan

        So now you know if Oprah is a Christian or not? Lol! You seem very mean spirited.

      • Marie

        Oprah is New Age, that’s where all that “Find your spirit” stuff comes from. I’ve seen her with my own eyes on her show, in a Q&A with a guest &!audience members about faith, one lady stood up and said the “Bible says the only way to heaven is through Christ”, at which point Oprah took the mic from the guest before she could answer, and very emphatically cried out (paraphrasing) “How do we know that’s the only way? How can you know Christianity is the only way?!! I just can’t say that!” I saw with my own eyes. Also, you can read it in “O” God, A Dialogue on Truth and Oprah’s Spirituality” for a more in depth study of her stated beliefs, and how they don’t jibe with Christianity.

  • mark yale

    Ok, before i get started on my main comment, as i read the article here.

    Joyce Meyers is coming to Long beach, CA (august 22-24 ) where i live. She is doing so and is giving 4 teachings in 3 days, THEY ARE FREE at a local venue….. These days when i hear of names like Joel Olesteen etc i always tend to see Dollars for tickets JUST TO HEAR THEM.

    so while my wife and i have been watching Joyce on TBN out here this article helps me out some and opens my mind some about my take on her being a wolf in sheeps clothing…

    Comparing the 2 shared in the article i rather in a way listen to Joyce in a way, because she shares MORE PERSONAL Mess ups in her life and how we all have them…

    as i read the article i noticed the web links, and saw 90% of them came from the SAME SITE WHY??? if there are other sources please also share them based on the article…

    i am rebuilding my faith and always think about Christ at least 1 time a day more than that at times… my focus has been on the end times.

    now 1 thing i tend to notice is that i HAVE NOT HEARD Many of these television ministries use the term HELL, there are a couple out there.

    also someone mentioned Billy Graham in the comments, of all the pastors and ministers in AMERICA of the Past and present, He is 1 that i would have loved to listen to a few times in my life… Billy Graham may say a couple things we might question, like Mormons are Christians, but he has a really good point… EVEN Though they TRULY Don’t believe JESUS Is the Savior, AT LEAST THE MORMONS ARE DOING MORE DOOR KNOCKING THAN WE ARE!!!

    yes we may have ministries in churches and other stuff, but how many NEW Visitors or new members of a Church DO YOU HANG OUT WITH and get to know.. out side of those you really really know…

    Jesus said, those without sin may cast the first stone… we are not perfect we have sin EVERY DAY thats why we always have to seek forgiveness even to Christ, especially to be rapture ready..

    as i started i said of the 2 joel and joyce id rather listen to Joyce because to me she is a little more realistic, and yes when you give to a church or a pour person your rewards are better, some need the help more than others.

    there is 1 pastor out here (greg laurie Harvest church) who has done a form of revivals here in so cal, 1 weekend at the Big A Stadium and in Anahiem and i am looking to see if he is doing 1 at Dodger stadium in LA..

    Billy graham had done a lot for America in years past, he has shared with many presidents and many others, how many of our pastors HAVE HIS INTEGRITY and Character? ask yourself that,

    as my wife and i take a listen to joyce meyer for the first time in person i will keep my ears open and ask a few questions

  • Lisa

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

  • Five @ Free Flow Friday!!! | Intentional Pastoring

    […] Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer by Rick […]

  • David Haley

    I am a young Christian and I don’t know much about either of these two. I wish there was more scriptural proof offered to explain why they are wrong instead of simple assertions that they are wrong. It may be obvious to some but I don’t know the word well enough to understand the big fuss. I don’t know what this prosperity gospel is but I do know that John The Baptist and Later Jesus said, “Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” The promise of entry into the Kingdom is the ultimate in propserity promises isn’t it?

    • monica

      Confusing new believers…way to go!
      Feel free to go hear Joyce Meyer dude! They pulled audio and video archives Of her from 35 years and twisted it. Ive never heard her say any of the things they claim she says…not in the six yrs i have been listening.

    • Anonymous

      Wow!!!! This is embarrassing as a born again Christian that we are even having this debate!!! Both ministries have brought more people to Christ than all of us put together ever will! So I don’t think God had a problem with them!!!!! As for prosperity teaching you are taking things out if context and using it for your benefit which makes me question your integrity because here is what prosperity teaching really means: Prosperity does not mean only financial riches… This would be a very narrow view of the concept… it simply means that we are living according to God’s principles and experiencing His blessing, and thus, successfully journeying through our pilgrimage here on earth free from greed, worry, and bondage…

      ” Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers.” 3 John 1:3

      – The Greek word “prosper” here is euodoo (yoo-od-o’-o) which means “to have a successful journey through life.”

      – The Hebrew word shalom (shaw-lome’) can be translated “prosperous” also; which means “Completeness, safety, health, soundness, and contentment.” [Zech 8:12]

      I for one want ALL of these things in my life!!

    • Anonymous

      Yes they are. all I read is this and that about joyce and joel was nothing but assumptions. Shes helped me so much in understanding what was wrong with Christianity. I couldn’t understand why people who called themselves Christians were still living according to feeling and flesh rather then love and contemptment for our lost world. Everyone has a critic in this world and its obvious she hit a soft spot in them why they would say that about her and him. Let god point out there faults when the time has come and rejoice that she brings lost souls to Christ is all that should matter.

  • bortmann

    “He could have helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your hands, at that point he couldn’t do nothing for himself anymore. He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin.” Joyce Meyer

    My friends this teaching by Joyce Meyer is heretical. Jesus did not ever stop becoming the Son of God. Essentially she is saying Jesus stopped being divine, the eternal Son, second person of the Trinity. Such blasphemy is an attack on the very nature of Christ!! Joyce Meyer needs to repent and retract this statement. There is no place in Scripture that says Jesus stopped being the Son of God. Does this make Meyer a false teacher? Lets be clear, anyone teaching or believing in this heresy (2 Pet 2:1) is no longer abiding in the doctrine of Christ and has neither the Father nor His Son (2 John 1:9)

    http://carm.org/joyce-meyer

    • CJ Wilson

      When Jesus was on the cross, and you have not referenced this, but He said “My God, why has thou forsaken ME!” God turned away because Jesus became SIN by taking the sins of the world. Thus, God turned away…..making Jesus SIN….our SIN. So yeah, He was at that moment NOT the perfect Son of God. he went into hell to preach to the ones who had died before the promise, being Him,and to get the keys to death, hell and the grave. You are not being 100% scriptural! Not sure where you are getting your scriptures but at the very least, quote the ones that actually apply! You are causing more division by this than they are……

  • Uche achara

    wow, is so sad to see believers tearing each other down. Mr Rick, as a believer. What you should be doing is praying for the pastors you have mentioned as false teachers. What you need, including myself is divine revelation knowledge and discernment before we speak. Instead of attacking them, you should speak the truth in love. A lack of understanding can make us say things we do not understand. As a result of our ignorance, we take scriptures out of context. Prosperity only becomes a problem when we take our eyes away from the prosperity originator, which is GOD, and focus on the prosperity.

    Jesus tells in Matthew 6:33; To seek God first, and ever other thing shall be added on to us. I have heard the pastors you call false teachers, teach people to seek the wealth creator and not the wealth itself. And in doing so earnestly, the wealth will come. You see prosperity is not only about money, it is about life in its totality. Lets not fall into the devil’s web, he takes the scriptures out of context to bring confusion. The word of God is very clear on prosperity. Money is just one of the aspects of it, we need money to further the gospel. These same pastors you are calling false, have made a difference in the lives of people all over the world. God has used them to bring hope, they have built schools, built fresh water supply systems, given free health care, shelter, and food to the needy.

    Mr Rick, they are doing what they were called to do, preach the gospel and help the poor. Millions of people are coming to the LORD, through these pastors….God is using them mightily. Mr Rick, please do not be offended at my question to you. Do you know what heaven really looks like? The book of revelation gives us an idea of what heaven is like… sounds like a place you would want to end up in, right? You see, JESUS left that, all of that, for you and I. To be poor, so that we can be rich in all areas of our lives. Remember HE is an exceeding and abundantly GOD, who wants to prosper us. But we miss it, because we lack understanding, what you don’t know can hurt you big time!!

    The prosperity gospel without proper understanding, can be devastating, but when preached with divine understanding. It Can make all the difference. Remember GOD does not want your money per say, your tithes and offerings are for the maintenance of the church, your pastors well being, salaries for the administrators and so on. God wants your heart, how you give is what really matters, and not what you give. Mr Rick, the pastors you mentioned are not false teachers, if your spirit does not agree with what the are teaching, invite the spirit of the LORD to enlighten you. The word of GOD is spiritually discerned, when we try to understand it with our natural minds, which is so limited by the way. We get into trouble and confusion…..agape is the greatest…..

  • Chuka Oguzie

    Prosperity comes from God, He gives power to make wealth. He created wealth. We need to step up on our understanding of the scripture. There are higher levels of revelations. Read 1corinthians 1:28 NIV when Paul talked about things that be not to nullify things that are or when the bible talks about we growing from glory to glory implies that revelations from the Lord cannot be exhausted. It get better every time

    • David Haley

      I am not sure how Corinthians 1 supports what you say but thanks for giving scripture. Where does scripture say God created wealth? What day did he create money? I think that Jesus indicated that money is a creation of Caesar Mark 12. The pursuit of money as a sort of “wealth” seems to be a fleshy enterprise but I am willing to learn if you have a scriptural basis for saying God created wealth.

  • nmworkman

    i’ve been saying this for years, that these two are NOT TO BE BE TRUSTED!! [yes, i was shouting]

  • Anonymous

    David, I agree. I wish there was more scriptural proof offered to explain why they are wrong instead of simple assertions that they are wrong.

  • Grace Stanley

    I agree with you Mr. Henderson. I once listened to Joel speak and I was appalled. While all the women I were with (which are strong and much older and wiser then I am) were taken in and thought he was such a great speaker, I was waiting for him once to mention Jesus Christ and his awesome sacrifice for us. Sadly that never happened all he talked about what using faith, not for believing in Christ, but to better yourself. When Jesus talked about transformation not just bettering yourself. I do not know as much about Joyce Meyers but I always felt like there was something there. I am so glad that I am not the only one who thinks this way and that someone else sees the truth as well as I do.
    For those who think I am wrong because their ministries are growing, just remember cancer grows as well as trees. If we water down the truth then yes we may grow, but how many people will come to Christ on watered down universal Christianity? Also for those who believe because they feel God move in their services or seminars. God can still move even when people are out of line. He moved on King Saul (in the Bible) even though he was in flat disobedience. People will not stop God from moving, but that does not mean that the people who run the ministry are right.
    I believe that one day God may change the hearts of theses two people, but until that day comes we must hold to what the Bible says and what it really teaches and not believe anything else no matter who says it or how many people believe it.
    Stand firm for Christ and having done all to stand, stand!

  • John Turner

    So many interpretations of God, Jesus Christ, and religion in general. Twisted by man’s insatiable appetite to try to understand a mystery that is so far beyond our understanding. As a Child of God, I just choose to have my own private personal relationship with my heavenly Father, and let the preachers fight amongst themselves. Truly a shame stones are thrown.

  • nmworkman

    Reblogged this on the PRACTICE of DISCOVERY and commented:
    such an important article & the follow-up related to wolves & stones. read it, read it, read it!!

  • Ronnie

    Let me say I’m not willing to say Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers are not false teachers, but when you have a video of John Piper, who also tends to be biblically sound, but stands on the flawed theology of Calvanism, then you’ve just hit a double standard, credibility is lost.

  • Anonymous

    While in seminary I was disturbed at times by how quickly some small form of heresy could be unnoticed by me. I still have that fear and pray for protection. I do not say this critically, but MANY of our congregants are not trained to identify heresy. It is not about whether Joel or Joyce ever read this article, but rather, about someone reading it that would be saved from being carried away with any form of false teaching. At least if people continue to watch these two teachers they will have a healthy caution in what they hear. These teachers are obviously not at our church each Sunday for us to discuss in person these kinds of teachings, etc, but, they are in the living room of every congregant in America, or at least potentially so. If the apostle Paul had been alive today, without the ability to see these tv preachers in person, I believe he would have warned his congregants/friends in any manner he could. I see this article as a warning and believe that if the author met any one of the two teachers in consideration, that he would bring the subject up.

    • David Haley

      John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. … I don’t see any difference between someone following a false prophet using Christianity and a false prophet like Deepak Chopra. The followers of these people are the poor in spirit. They as well as Chopra and possibly Meyer need to hear the good news. It is our job to know the Gospel and share it. His sheep will hear his Voice. Those that choose darkness will reject his voice and continue to shake their Magic 8 ball and call prayer lines to bless their lottery tickets. People choose light or darkness. We need only be a light.

  • Louise Dotter

    Thank you, it’s about time their fellow christians started sounding the alarm about these two charlatans – we atheists have “carried your water” for too long! NOW – how about Pat and the rest of the TV nuts?

  • Anon

    Not a fan of either Osteen or Meyer, but curious about the Apostle’s Creed and its specific reference to Jesus descending to hell. It’s widely accepted as a statement of faith by Christians, so I’m confused why we’re angry with Joyce Meyer for basically stating what’s in the ancient text. Thoughts?

    http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/apostles.htm

    • bortmann

      Anon,

      Its true our Jesus went down into hell after His death on the cross. Joyce teaches the lie you must believe He suffered three days (which He didn’t) to be saved!!! In other words, the physical death of the Son of God on the cross wasn’t enough to secure or Salvation!

  • bortmann

    ‘Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.’ (2 John 1:9)

    How frightening is it, how heartbreaking, to see so many Christians that either don’t understand the importance of the doctrine of Christ or just don’t care about it.
    John wrote whoever transgresses and does continually abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. Only those abiding in the doctrine of Christ have the Father and His Son>

    THIS IS A SALVATION ISSUE MY FRIENDS. IT DOESN’T MATTER HOW MANY YOU HAVE LED TO THE LORD, HOW MANY YOU HAVE PRAYED OVER, HOW MANY YOU HAVE FED, OR HOW MANY MIRACLES YOU HAVE SEEN!!!

    JOYCE MEYER is a tragic example of a believer who once taught the doctrine of Christ yet now teaches for someone to be saved you must BELIEVE in the lie Jesus went to hell and suffered for three days (1 Cor. 15:1-4), BELIEVE in the lie Jesus ceased to be the Son of God and had to be born again (John 3:18), BELIEVE in the lie a Christian can no longer sin (she says she she doesn’t sin anymore) (1 John 1:10)

    When confronted, even rebuked, she refuses to repent of these heresies. Yet millions of believers not only support her because of her good works they choose to turn their eyes away as she tramples the blood of Jesus underfoot while insulting the Spirit of Grace. (Heb. 10:29) You can even watch her teach the heresy she learned from her buddy Ken Copeland, “You don’t have God in you, you are one.”

    Joyce Meyer, who was once bought by the blood of Jesus, is now denying Him because of the above heresies she is sowing into the body of Christ worldwide. (2 Pet 2:1) Tragically we are seeing more and more false teachers like Meyer, Copeland, Hinn, and Johnson deceptively coming in Christ’s name while deceiving millions. (Mat. 24:4-5)

    “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God… if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6)

    Anyone teaching our precious Lamb of God ceased to be the Son of God and had to be born again is putting Jesus to open shame. As long as they believe such heretical blasphemy it’s impossible for them to be renewed back to repentance. How frightening in these last days to witness so many professing Christ choosing to be brainwashed by deceiving spirits!

    “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.” (1 Tim. 4:1)

    http://carm.org/joyce-meyer

  • MUSIMBAGO ROBERT

    CRITICISING IS NOT GOOD!! So you have decided, to achieve CHEAP POPULARITY by criticizing ministers that God has raised from zero to there heights which I can say that you desire but haven’t reached yet!! If at all they be false teachers, you would have given a correction to every quotation you have written in your article, but I think you haven’t because may be your Bible knowledge also does not amount – I can see this from how you criticize Biblically correct teachings. I ADVISE YOU TO CONTINUE LISTENING TO THE TEACHINGS OF JOEL OSTEEN AND JOYCE MEYER IF YOU ARE TO BECOME A MORE VICTORIOUS CHRISTIAN.
    LOVE U

    • djaz

      Uh, aren’t YOU criticizing? BTW Pointing out what may be false teaching is alright with God.

      I wonder, do you profit from spreading God’s word, also?

      As for me, I find what Rick says to be correct, regarding Meyer and Osteen. For Osteen’s part, I watched an hour – agonizing hour – of one of his programs. Not ONE mention of Jesus. Meyer puts me off because her “sermons” are condescending in tone, along with, being in complete disregard for Jesus’ role in our lives.

      There Is nothing wrong in prosperity, but to accomplish such by usurping God’s word is not fruitful, honest, or wise.

  • mandy

    Thank you Rick for being brave enough to post this on your blog and for seeking to be a light.

  • bortmann

    Prosperity teacher Benny Hinn once placed a curse against anyone speaking against his ministry. In righteous anger David Wilkerson called this threat blasphemy.

    [YouTube The Curse Of Benny Hinn, T. 0:08-1:24]

    “Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?” (Jam. 2:7)

    Pastor David Wilkerson is amazed at how many are being deceived by such doctrines of demons. My friend, how can you and I remain quiet as more and more prosperity teachers sow such deception?

  • Deborah Jacobs

    for all those that are criticizing this brother for speaking UP – shame on you. the Word of God is CLEAR that we have a responsibility to WARN others of deception and even by NAME as paul the apostle did. what no one in the ‘condemning’ camp here seems to be realizing is that this brother has a responsiblity to the SHEEP to speak up – for the protection of those that have not YET been deceived as well as to try and reach those that have…..the REAL question here is how DEADLY is deception – why did the Lord Jesus Himself warn about it as well as the apostles – that there would rise up from among US those that would deceive and lead astray? why bother if it is not that ‘big a deal’. our salvation is based on FAITH in ONE thing – the perfect sacrificial death of the spotless Lamb of God on our behalf – if we believe and trust in what He did on that cross FOR us – and surrender our lives accordingly in the great ‘divine exchange’ then according to the Word of God, we are ‘born again’ and have eternal life in Him…..BUT, what if we begin to put our FAITH in things WE are doing as in the prosperity gospel – do we NOT realize the GRAVE danger here – that bit by bit – we no longer trust IN Him ‘exclusively’ but in our own works and IF in our own works – we are damned – we have left the faith. brothers and sisters – please – realize how DANGEROUS these ‘other gospels with their other jesus” are – it’s not just a ‘difference of opinion’ – it is a LEAVING THE TRUTH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED and the end thereof is death.
    i thank you, dear brother, for speaking up. if more ministers of the true gospel WOULD speak up perhaps MORE souls would be saved from this heresy. watchmen on the walls – WHERE ARE YOU?????

  • Living Free in Christ

    Thank you for the information! Since I rededicated my life to Christ 2 1/2 months ago, I have been seeking out more Christian resources. The names Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer have certainly came up, but I really knew nothing about them, so I am glad I have seen this warning. Thank you.

    Lynn

  • Jennifer

    I happen to have faith in both of the said evangelists you are referring to. If you are so desperate to tell others about Jesus, then focus your time on that instead of the time invested posting this. God will deal with the shortcomings of others – not your job dude.

    • Tbroussard

      Hebrews 5:14 “But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.”
      We are not to judge in the sense that God will judge. We are however, called to discern good from evil, fruit of the Spirit, false doctrine, false teachers……

  • bortmann

    Afraid not Jennifer,
    I’ll expose such enemies of the cross as Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Ken Copeland, Jessie Duplantis, and Rod Parsley any chance I get. I care about the millions these heretics are deceiving. The reason they are so successful is because most within the body of Christ refuse to take a righteous stand against their doctrines of demons.

  • Deborah Jacobs

    “The reason they are so successful is because most within the body of Christ refuse to take a righteous stand against their doctrines of demons” DIRECT QUOTE FROM ‘BORTMANN’ – amen and amen and amen and amen. that is EXACTLY why. we have been intimidated into silence – the whole ‘judge not lest you be judged’ misappropriation of scripture. God forgive us. NEVER are we told to ‘not judge’ those that are teaching false doctrine – we are told TO judge and to warn.

  • Deborah Jacobs

    oh, people, search OUT the truth in the Word of God – don’t just swallow everything that ‘appeals to itching ears’……..please.

  • Monica

    I couldn’t disagree with you any more. Maybe instead of spending so much time “calling out” people, you should spend a little time studying the Word of God. Give a little time to studying out 2 Corinthians 8:9. Take a little time to study the Greek word “PLOUSIOS”.

    Do you think Jesus walked this earth with no money? If he had no money, why did he have need of a treasurer? Why don’t you spend some time studying the New Testament about prosperity? It has changed my life. I am a single mom that is a walking, living, breathing example of how God desires us to prosper so we can support those who go to all the world to preach the Gospel. It took a while, but now it seems I can’t out give God—-and I sure try! If you looked at my bills and what I make, you’d be scratching your head, wondering how I manage. I not only manage but have extra at the end of the month. I have been a Christian all my life, believing that God doesn’t want me to prosper. I lived from paycheck to paycheck, never having enough to do anything. Once I changed my words, started giving to the Kingdom of God and started believing that God wants me to prosper–not for my own benefit or for the love of money–but because He needs people that have money to help send missionaries around the world, I started prospering!! There is nothing wrong with speaking positive words. There is nothing wrong with desiring a life that is good. What do you think Heaven is going to be like? Even Jesus’ own prayers said we should pray that “thy will be done on earth even as it is in Heaven”.

    I have 3 children that all love the Lord. We go to church every Sunday morning, and on Sunday night, my kids love to stay up and watch Joel. He encourages them. I don’t know many teenage kids that beg their parents to let them stay up at night to watch a minister. My kids call it their “Joel time”. My 18 year old asked for Joel’s latest book for her birthday. I know God’s Word. I have been a Christian for 40 years. My kids’ faith could rival any adults. My 14 year old has always wanted to go to Disney World. I told her if she wanted to go, she needed to pray that my work would be blessed and I’d make the money to take her. Same thing happened with a trip to San Diego…she really wanted to go. Guess what? God provided the money for not just one, but BOTH!! I believe it’s because God loves us and wants to prosper us. Her faith is unbelievable! If she is having a problem with something or someone, she turns to God.

    I work for a ministry and I daily see people healed of cancer, getting jobs after being prayed for, having money just come in the mail or out of the blue! If you don’t believe, it won’t happen to you.

    Do you have children? Would you want them to go without? Would you want them to live in the slums and just barely get by for your sake? Would you, as a father, just sit back and let your children be sick or hungry or live on the streets? Do you enjoy seeing your kids struggle just make ends meet? If you did, you’d be considered a horrible father. We have a heavenly Father..how much more does He Love us? Do you think He sits up in Heaven and says, “Oh, good! Look there at my son, Rick. He doesn’t have money to pay his bills this month. Fantastic!! That makes me so happy that he is suffering for me!” Are you kidding?!?! Think on that for just a bit….

    And one last thing….Joel doesn’t even take a salary from his church, and he has every right to. If he was such a money monger, don’t think he would???

    • bortmann

      Jamison,
      No one is a minister, much less saved, who teaches the heresy Jesus had to be born again. Shame on you for supporting heretics that are deceiving millions.

    • deb

      Thank you for your encouragement Monica…I was getting very discouraged reading some of these posts…God has always been there for my family in me in difficult times and I too am encouraged by the living faith and words of testimony of others…We went to a conservative Presbyterian church for a long time and it was very discouraging to be around people who do not believe God still shows up in the earthly lives of His people with great blessing!

    • Steven

      Thank you Monica, your encouragement is well received. I have the same testimony on how God has prospered me as a result of the teaching of Sister Joyce & Joel. The unbelievers in this article are only forsaking their own mercy. BLESSING!

  • 😇

    I do not know if you are a Christian , but are YOU trying to lead people to Christ? Your web page title alone would turn most away from church. There are many different faiths in this world, and most will share heaven. Just because your beliefs do not align completely with theirs, does not make either of you wrong! Both leaders reach thousands of people who would otherwise never be in church or hear the gospel. Perhaps in the considerable amount of time you took in preparing this article, you could have reached a few lost souls.

  • Alien & Stranger

    What a wonderful witness this article and thread is to unbelievers… not.
    Jesus said, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:34-35). See also John 17.
    The article and the thread left a sour taste. I prefer to pray for leaders and teachers, that the Lord will keep or bring them (as the case may be) in line with His Word and His Will. We do not need to do the work of the Holy Spirit. I prefer simply to preach the Gospel and make disciples, as Jesus commanded.
    There will be no denominations and isms in heaven, only those who have repented of their sins and trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation, receiving him as Saviour and Lord of their lives, all brought about by the Holy Spirit bringing revelation, conviction, repentance and surrender to Jesus Christ. We just have to co-operate and allow Him to transform us and work through us to impact a world that is lost and perishing.
    Let’s keep the main thing the main thing.

    • bortmann

      Alien,
      Part of making disciples is exposing false teachers and false prophets that are sending their followers to hell. What really is a sour taste are believers that insist we should only preach the gospel that haven’t led anyone to Jesus in years. Praying for false teachers as the fleece the flock is a smoke screen to justify not taking a stand for Christ or His word.

  • Scott Amundsen

    Frankly the whole thing mystifies me. I grew up in ELCA Sunday School and even when we were kids no one said that life was going to be easy or even fair; it is the way of the world. This “Prosperity Gospel” is nonsense on its face and I really marvel at the level of gullibility of so many. My first question for both Meyer and Osteen would be “Okay, fine, prosperity is a good thing; it is nice not to have to scrape and scratch for your next meal and of course everyone likes (or would like) a nice home and a car that at least does not cost a fortune in repairs every month. But where does it stop? There is NOTHING in that Bible you keep waving about that says that if you follow Jesus you will get rich. The very IDEA would have been ANATHEMA to Jesus of Nazareth because his angriest words on this earth were always directed at those who had much and gave little. How do you justify preaching something that even a third grader could discover by reading the Gospels is a BIG FAT LIE?”

  • mick

    If something is done privately it should be dealt with privately. If done publicly then it should be dealt with publicly. All of you who say its wrong to confront false teaching, well Jesus and the writers of scripture did it and named people. Because it was public sin. And these people are deceiving millions and making millions if dollars doing it with no regard for who they hurt or how wrong they are. If you’re offended because you agree with them get over it, but if you really believe it’s wrong to correct their teaching publicly, then rest assured it’s not. It would be wring to know and not say something! Hare has nothing to do with correcting teaching that is not only harmful but blasphemous. Lord bless you to understand.

  • Donna

    Religion can be and is big business in the USA, I can just see in my area some pastors drive BMW’s,live in big homes all in the name of Jesus. The followers give in the plates in the name of Jesus. So who’s wrong the teacher or the flock?

  • Luke

    Yes there is some aberrational things they both say but using John Piper or especially Hank “heresy hunter” Hannegraff invalidates your case as they have their own problems.Piper-Calvinism and cessationist tendencies and Hannegraff’s overreaction to any and every thing and taking everything out of context.
    I would focus on telling the truth about those themes then only use their teaching to back up how off they are. The biggest danger to Christianity now is not those teachings it is the Hyper-grace heresy.

  • Jan Goldsmith

    I am a fundamental non-denominational Christian of 74 yrs of age. I did not like Joyce Meyers for awhile and then a girl who worked under me asked me about her and Joel Osteen. What did I think of them. She had their books. I admitted that I really knew nothing about them, did not listen to them or read their books so she loaned me a book of each. I skimmed them – didn’t take me long to decide against Osteen as I couldn’t find Bible references to back up what he was saying. Not so with Joyce’s book as she had Scripture references galore in her book. I found nothing I could take exception with in her teaching so began to record and listen to her programs. I am now a fan. I have never heard her say anything that I had a serious disagreement with and much that convinced me she is truly a Christian and cares about others. I do not find that she teaches a prosperity gospel. She seems to be honest about God blessing those who give and not to expect instant gratification. God answers no sometimes and answers in his own time. Sometimes we ask amiss and God doesn’t say yes. I’ve never heard her suggest we can name and claim anything. And frankly, I doubt I have ever sat under a minister that I agreed 100% with everything that he said. I do not say they were wrong – perhaps it is me. But I take especial care to not call anyone a false teacher if their lifestyle bears fruit and when I see and hear the things accomplished through JM Ministries, I have to believe God is blessing her ministry. Not one of us should pretend to know all truth and think we never err in our thinking. I certainly prefer to err on the side of good rather than evil. Won’t you be surprised when you get to heaven and find Joyce and Joel there, if indeed they are. And I think if I get there and I fully expect to, I think Joyce will too.

    • bortmann

      Jan<

      Joyce M wont go to heaven if she continues to teach the heretical blasphemy Jesus became a sinner, ceased to be the Son of God and had to be born again.

      More heretical quotes by word of faith teacher Joyce Meyer:

      "He could have helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your hands, at that point he couldn’t do nothing for himself anymore. He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin." Joyce Meyer

      "He became our sacrifice and died on the cross. He did not stay dead. He was in the grave three days. During that time he entered hell, where you and I deserve to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there.” Joyce Meyer

      "His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserve to go… There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth." Joyce Meyer

    • deb

      I agree and I especially agree with you that I have rarely agreed with 100% of any teacher I have listened to for any period of time…Many of these so-called prosperity teachers have great evangelistic and mercy ministries they support around the world and God is using them in mighty ways….God is so kind as to even use all of us in our error….

    • Damon Whitsell

      Audio clip on Joyce Meyer teaching the unBiblical doctrine of name it, claim it, blab it, grab it. Don’t be deceived.

      If you will search on Youtube you will see that Joyce has a whole sermon series on the POWER OF WORDS

  • Debi Schuhow

    debate with anyone and will not respond to any attempts to engage me in such debate.

  • hollytashley

    Reblogged this on Holly T. Ashley and commented:
    A must read!

  • hollytashley

    Those who have ears to hear, let them hear!
    Awesome article, very well written! Thank you.

  • kathy Yancey

    I belueve this also. …people are following these two cause it’s more of a feel good sermon….I am a member of a southern Baptist church with a Bible teaching pastor…so many people are being fooled……and follow them cause they hear what their brains are taught to hear….WRONG INFO…Read the Bible people and don’t listen to false prophets…..

    • bortmann

      Kathy,

      Baptist ministers like Charles Stanley, John MacArthur and David Jeremiah teach once saved always saved (false) the gifts have passed away (false) the rapture before the persecution by the Antichrist (false) and tongues is demonic (blasphemy)!!!

      They’re deceiving more believers than the prosperity teachers!!

  • bortmann

    Everyone (both the “righteous” and the “unrighteous”) who died prior to the Cross, went to “She’ol,” the OT “holding tank” for all the spirits of those who had deceased. Peter called it “prison” in 1 Pet. 3:19.

    There were two “compartments in She’ol separated by a “great gulf” (Lk. 16:23). Between His death and resurrection Christ went there and “preached the full Gospel” to these spirits of “just men made perfect” (Heb. 12:23).

    When Christ resurrected from out of the House of Death (Heb. 13:20) He removed the righteous side (known as “Paradise”) into the Third Heaven, where the righteous now go when they die, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies (Mt. 24:31; 1 Cor. 15:52-550).

    The unrighteous who die without Christ (including the billions who died prior to the Cross, who died without faith in the coming Sacrifice of the Lamb) still go to the compartment of She’ol (called Hell), which is under the Earth, awaiting their resurrection to damnation at the Great Whiter Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:12-15).

  • allofus106

    good article..thanks for a confirmation ”check” Jesus Christ/God in the Flesh had already put in my spirit..

  • Debi Schuhow

    Blah my whole note did not get published! I will try again. This is a note of encouragement! I commend the boldness God has given you to speak out! I had attended a Joyce Meyer conference in St. Louis despite my husband’s protest. He could not articulate his reasons for his protest but I came to understand it later. I attended the conference and I liked her wit, speaking style, humor, and it was easy to be engaged by her speaking. At this conference she came out to the stage initially and it was obvious she had a facelift performed. Then my hypocrisy radar went into overload. I felt sad as she had missed, as a leader, an opportunity to demonstrate to show us, as women, .how to age gracefully….. Wrinkles and all. Ever since I was a little girl I always sensed that those who have been given much are responsible for much and we are not to spend our gifts, talents, and wealth on ourselves. This fall from a God given beginning is told over and over again. King Saul and King Solomon comes to mind. She missed an awesome opportunity to take that wealth to further Gods purposes. That is sad. Joel Olsteen and his “philosophy/theology” is an offshoot of Norman Vincent Peale. Been there, done that. One cannot positively think or positively act their way out of their sinful/selfish nature. God is the one who made me, He knows the flaw in my nature, and He knows the solution. He is jealous that I call on Him to transform this nature. He is not jealous as a human would be, He is jealous that I seek Him only because He knows what is BEST for me-here and eternally. Be encouraged! Continue to rely on His boldness even as your hands shake in your pockets, your feet tremble in your shoes, and your heart pounds in your ears! TRUTH stands still and does not require a defensive posture.

  • JY

    I think this blog is crap. And just shows how insecure and jealous you are.
    Get over yourself.

  • Jamison

    I think you have way overstepped your 20 years of ministry. Most ministers have a particular area they excel at, Joel Osteen’s is his positive how to pick yourself up and lead a better life for Christ. It’s biblical. Joyce meyer’s gift is rising above serious trauma and abuse, finding life in The Lord and using the bible to live effectively as a Christian today. I say shame on you for trying to tear down your fellow ministers. I will be praying for YOU!

    • bortmann

      Jamison,
      No one is a minister, much less saved, who teaches the heresy Jesus had to be born again. Shame on you for supporting heretics that are deceiving millions.

      • Jamison

        I would say judging someone’s salvation with cherry picked, taken out of context, and misquoted messages to discredit God’s messengers and ministers, says a lot about your journey. We serve a big God. He created us all with different personalities, and souls with different needs. While no one in ministry is ever able to reach everyone, or escape the pulpit without misspeaks, there will be a day of reckoning for those so called whistle blowers who tear down God’s voices in his name!

  • Joel Osteen och Joyce Meyer. | Kvintettfamilj – vi fem tillsammans

    […] Intressant inlägg om två världskända kristna profiler. Kanske värt att fundera lite på. ”Prosperity gospel” är det vi kallar för framgångsteologi, dvs. att kristna kommer att bli rika, lyckliga och allmänt framgångsrika genom att följa Jesus. Det finns en filmsnutt med John Piper i inlägget. Han berättar varför framgångsteologi inte håller, rent bibliskt. Otroligt intressant. Till slut säger han att framgångsteologer inte söker sig till intensivvårdsavdelningar eller akutmottagningar för att be för de mänskorna. Det kan hända. Men jag känner nog till kristna som gör det. Som söker sig till mänskor i kris och ber om helande. Lite svårt att avgöra vad som är vad. John Piper menar att helanden sker ibland, men inte alltid. Återigen. Otroligt intressant diskussion. Å ena sidan är Bibeln full av löften (”Be så ska ni få..”) och å andra sidan så visar lärjungarna och Jesus på en livsstil som är full av lidande (Jesus dog på ett kors, många lärjungar blev martyrer). […]

  • Suzanne Parker

    Thank you for this article. Several years ago my Bible study class at church did one of Joyce Meyer’s booklets. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it, but I didn’t really trust anything that she said. Everyone else in the study, however, were eating it up. I thought it was just me so I didn’t say anything. And as for Joel Osteen, I caught one of his sermons on tv one Sunday morning when I was too ill to go to church. I watched for just a few minutes, then, turned the channel. I can’t quite understand why people are so fooled by people who are true Christians and true followers of Christ for Christ’s sake.

  • Wayne

    “She teaches that Jesus literally stopped being the Son of God on the Cross”

    Okay, what she said was:

    “He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin.”

    Okay, not the way one would typically state this, but actually not off the mark either. The Scripture says:

    God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor. 5:21)

    So how can someone “be” sin and “be” the Son of God at the same time? I think not, because to “be” the Son of God is to “be” sinless. Is there not a moment, or a duration of time, during which He truly was made to “be” sin for us, just as this scripture declares? How does this qualify as “heresy,” when it’s there in the Word of God?

    Nor do I find the other accusations convincing, a lot is taken out of context. For instance, the complaint about Jesus “paying for our sins in hell.” Opinion has been divided over the actuality of that taking place, depending upon interpretation of comments by Peter. But Jesus declares in Revelation, “I am alive forever more, and have the keys of death and hell.” So where did He get the keys, if not from the one who held the keys up until that point?

    I think the author of the article hears a lot that is merely flavored by his own hearing, and not necessarily what was actually said.

    • bortmann

      Wayne>
      Jesus never ceased to be the Son of God, before or after the cross. Your reasoning is unbiblical and antichrist. To try and justify the heresies by Meyer is from the enemy. You have no idea the deceiving spirits you’re not only listening to but obeying!

      • Wayne

        You have no idea the deceiving spirits you’re listenting to either, which would try to convince you that Jesus could be at the same time both Son of God and sin. Of course, you seem unwilling to find any ground in between. You insist it’s impossible for Him to cease to be Son of God. I get that. But you need to recognize that it’s equally impossible for Him to “be” the Son of God and “be” sin at the same time. But it gets you nowhere to condemn someone because of the way THEY state it when the way YOU state is equally impossible. But it gets you nowhere to simply consider yourself to be right and everyone else wrong, and accuse everyone who says any different than you to be guilty of “heresies” and “listening to deceiving spirits.” If you have any response to how Jesus could “be” Son of God and “be” sin at the same time, I’d certainly be interested in hearing it. And I won’t even accuse you of being deceived by enemy spirits.

  • Tara Still

    I think you simply wrote this to get more blog hits. Just my opinion.

    • Marixi

      Tara, did you read it in full? If so, and you still don’t agree then please offer proof of why a person shouldn’t agree rather than just declaring an insult.

  • An

    You are judging Gods annointed! Judge not! The word says! They are winning people to Jesus. You need to get on your knees and ask for forgiveness. Why is it that you pic on other Christians, who will be in heaven with you, instead of fighting our enemy, the Devil and his angels?
    I pray that your eyes and heart will be opened!! I AMA sinner saved by grace. So u am no longer a sinner!
    God save your soul from behind deceived!
    In Him

    • closetcalvinist

      Have you stopped to consider the warnings found in Scripture regarding false gospels and the false teachers who proclaim them? The pastor is called to mark out and have nothing to do with them. You are attacking a shepherd who is doing exactly what God has called him to. The fact that you can’t tell the difference between a true teacher of the Gospel and heretics like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers makes it very questionable as to you being saved yourself. The fact that you twist Scripture to refer to a pastor, any pastor, as God’s annointed, and twist the “judge not” passage from Matthew 7, further evidences your wanting of Biblical literacy.

      I would suggest it is you who needs to get on his knees and ask for forgiveness. You are attacking a shepherd who God has put over the flock for doing exactly what God has commanded in Scripture that he do.

      • Erika Anderson

        Amen! Also, I don’t agree with Amp. Bibles and that’s all Joyce Meyer uses. I think she has an amazing God-given gift of public speaking and getting messages across but her arrogance and greediness for money has gotten the better of her. Wonderful article. I’m grateful also that someone else has called out Joel Osteen. I can’t stomach even 5 minutes of him.

  • Lisa

    The other ramification of the prosperity gospel is the guilt and shame it’s followers experience when they don’t get the promised rewards of doing certain things. “If this is what God promises He will do when we do this, why didn’t He do it for me?” It can lead to the questioning of salvation and feelings of being unloved or unworthy, even jealousy for the people God apparently blessed in the way we wanted to be blessed.

    I didn’t take the time to read the hundreds of comments, but some of the ones I saw seemed to take criticism with your comments. I think the prosperity gospel can cause untold damage to the Church, here and abroad, and should be spoken out against until it is gone.

  • Bill Notta

    Here is my problem with this blog post. The Word says in Matthew 18:15-16, “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16″But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact my be confirmed…. Did you act on this scripture? I do not think so for no where in your blog did you refer to this scripture or if you even approached them on this.
    So should we label you (Rick) as a false teacher,too?
    I do not know the answer to that question.
    In my opinion and that’s all it is, is my opinion. You should have gone to these two individuals and showed them your blog before going public with it. To give them the opportunity to answer your accusations.
    I do not listen Ms. Meyers or Mr. Osteen and mostly likely never will but not because of your blog. I have my personal reasons why and do not wish to discuss them in this blog.
    I feel Rick, you owe them an apology.
    IN Christ Jesus
    Bill

    • Daniel Beaudoin

      Bill,
      Consider Jesus bringing correction and condemnation to the scribes and the Pharisees. Do you think He contacted all of them individually first? There is a difference between addressing personal sins and addressing public teaching of heresy.

  • shassoldt

    I went on a mission trip to Uganda a few years ago, and was asked by a new Ugandan christian to explain the “Prosperity Gospel” that he had heard about. He was very confused. “That” gospel had not helped him …. he was a street boy who had recovered from drug addictions, but still had not family and not home.

  • Anonymous

    Rick:

    In the end, we all will have regrets in the way by which we interpreted our relationship and our understandings that we have with our creator. Both Joyce and Joel will one day acknowledge their mis-steps and have regrets…They will have regrets about the things they missed, the things they failed to prioritize and the things that they could have done better.

    I’m sure that one day they will look at God with tears running down their face and say, “You know I messed up.” They will say “I messed up” like we all will one day (if we believe). Now perhaps your blog post even now will initiate their process. BUT you too will see that what you did here was also a suffering for attention!!! You will see and I say this with all respect that your assessment became nothing more than an exaltation of yourself. And now the best thing you can give all of us struggling Christians (because that is what we all are, you know?) is an apology!

    Your apology will be accepted. And I hope that you will pray and travail that you have not paved what one may see as a “more enlightened way” for those who should be our closest friends (non-Christians) who are simply watching our every move.

    Respectfully Submitted

  • Anonymous

    Thanks, Man………

  • Spencer Masslieno-Allen

    And so you think you are better because you condemn them or can find fault as you say. Give me a break. People be cautious of who you listen to. I’ll follow Joel and Joyce any day. They are blessed and highly favored and can guarantee you they are not concerned about your false ideologies of them.

    • tomf80

      Or, they are false teachers, giving their hearers (you) what their itching ears desire, which is in fact God’s judgment on the false sheep. I would suggest heeding the warnings regarding false teachers that are found throughout the New Testament.

      If you are believing the things Osteen and Meyers teach, you most likely are not a Christian, but instead a false convert.

      Repent and trust in Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins, and give up your idols of money, power, self promotion, etc. May the Lord have mercy on you and lead you to repentance and faith for the forgiveness of your sins.

  • closetcalvinist

    When you attack wolves the goats sure do flock to their defense. Glad to see you marking the wolves to protect the flock. As your comments area shows, goats like their wolves. Ignore them, and continue in the Gospel, in season, and out of season, and continue to protect the flock.

  • Anonymous

    Interesting article…i hope people do their own research and pray about these “Movements” instead of just taking others’ words/opinions about it. Personally, I have experienced the power and authority God has instilled within us to “speak things into existence” in my own life and in the lives of many sons and daughters that I know. The law of sowing and reaping is a law of nature that God Himself placed into effect. Anyway, I believe it takes wisdom, maturity, and discernment to use the principles. I don’t agree with speakers/preachers who give an amount…that direction should come straight from God. It’s a personal matter between the person and God. Which hits the point that God does very much give revelation of things that are not written out in the Bible! Honestly, I am not a fan of Meyer’s or Olsteen’s “style” but I don’t have enough background info of either to agree with saying they are “false teachers.” IF they are indeed…it does not mean the Principles/Movements are unbiblical…it just means the enemy is using something that comes from God and tweaking it to bring confusion/deception. Only God truly knows their hearts…many people over time where considered heretics and blasphemers (ie. Galileo and Jesus Himself) only for all to find out later they were right. In the end, the harvest is ready and plentiful and we don’t have time to sit here and debate about doctrines and denominations. We need to get out of the 4 walls of the church and SHOW Jesus to others. He is what brings us together. United we stand and divided we fall. We can’t let the enemy keep distracting us with focusing on what divides us. The first commandment is simple: Love God and Love others. I think we can all agree on that!

  • MF

    Interesting article…i hope people do their own research and pray about these “Movements” instead of just taking others’ words/opinions about it. Personally, I have experienced the power and authority God has instilled within us to “speak things into existence” in my own life and in the lives of many sons and daughters that I know. The law of sowing and reaping is a law of nature that God Himself placed into effect. Anyway, I believe it takes wisdom, maturity, and discernment to use the principles. I don’t agree with speakers/preachers who give an amount…that direction should come straight from God. It’s a personal matter between the person and God. Which hits the point that God does very much give revelation of things that are not written out in the Bible! Honestly, I am not a fan of Meyer’s or Olsteen’s “style” but I don’t have enough background info of either to agree with saying they are “false teachers.” IF they are indeed…it does not mean the Principles/Movements are unbiblical…it just means the enemy is using something that comes from God and tweaking it to bring confusion/deception. Only God truly knows their hearts…many people over time where considered heretics and blasphemers (ie. Galileo and Jesus Himself) only for all to find out later they were right. In the end, the harvest is ready and plentiful and we don’t have time to sit here and debate about doctrines and denominations. We need to get out of the 4 walls of the church and SHOW Jesus to others. He is what brings us together. United we stand and divided we fall. We can’t let the enemy keep distracting us with focusing on what divides us. The first commandment is simple: Love God and Love others. I think we can all agree on that!

  • Anonymous

    Joyce’s teaching are Scripturally based and she is a Spirit-filled Christian woman who has helped myself and thousands of others. She has many places in the world where the money has built orphanages, wells, schools, and rebuilt homes for the poor. Wherever there is a disaster, her people are there helping others. She NEVER advocates that people send her money while not paying their own bills. If she has more money than you do, so what?! I’ve seen prospectus’s of where the money has gone and then people she helped. How many people have you helped with the money you’ve collected? Do you actually think you are holier than her because you work at In-N-Out? I have listened to her for years and I know she has lead many people to Jesus. I am embarrassed for you and the ignorance and jealousy you show of this precious child of God. Why don’t you stop wasting your time attacking this Christian woman that God has annointed and perhaps figure out why Anthony Weiner is even considered for public office after all his nasty and innapropriate behavior? There are plenty of real losers to go after!

    • Anonymous

      Amen!!! I have been so burdened after reading this, but couldn’t have expressed it any better than you just did. Shame on HIM for publicly attacking another member of “the Body of Christ”!

      • Anonymous

        Amen!!! Have you ever heard Joyce’s story?!? It’s insane, this is absolutely embarrassing for you to write, no wonder why we turn non-belivers off, we are always known for what we stand against, instead of the light we should be standing for. Very disrespectful and abrasive article to a 70 year old woman helps so many people, maybe she mis spoke a couple times? Isn’t the gospel based on forgiveness? I know she preaches that? Whats wrong with prosperity? So we go through our whole lives wanting oppression, never having money to give to others? This is so twisted?

      • Jaime

        Misspoke a few times? The woman claims that Jesus, our Lord and Savior, was the first born again human being! The only thing that is twisted here is her teaching!

  • Linda Wheeler

    Through some tough times, Joyce Myers ministries gave me strength and a desire to be a better Christian. You weren’t there for me.
    Stop slinging the mus at those who earnestly lead others to Christ. We all KNOW Joel is not a minister. Even he has said so. ( I’ve been to Houston and seen both Joyce and Joel.) But he reaches out to thousands with his message of the Love of God. Go after our false political leaders and preach God’s word. Leave the Joyce and Joel’s alone. Use your voice and printed words elsewhere.

  • Linda Wheeler

    That was MUD slinging, obviously.

  • macki jones

    Try reading Luke 9:49-50. I don’t believe anyone has interpreted the entire Bible 100% correctly. We all make mistakes and that’s what grace is for.

    • monica

      the audio and video of JM is from 30 plus years ago! Hope we have all learned a few things since then! Hoping there are no unbelievers reading this site. Unbelievable!

  • joannenil

    Why assume that JM uses ministry money for her personal expendatures & homes? She writes books and sells her dvd’s by the truck loads. That money is hers…she earned it.

    Re: point #4, don’t knock it if you’ve never tried it

    Here is a video of her. First 2 minutes she is asking for money. Then the rest of the message, YOU decide if she is preaching truth. If you are afraid to watch it you are probably afraid of truth.

    I don’t agree 100 % with every preacher/teacher’s theology…but I do understand that David said, “touch not God’s anointed”.

    And I am attending her conference in September. There is a great presence of God I enjoy each year there, as well as anointed teaching that has impacted my life. Praise Jesus!

  • joannenil

    the link to the vid:

  • Kathryn

    John Piper talks about the clothes and where Joel and Joyce preach from – I don’t see him in a shack. Nice pressed shirt and sports jackets in all those youtube videos from really nice facilities.

    Joel tells everyone to get in a Bible-Based church. Joyce repeatedly admonishes people that they must get in the BIble and study for themselves.

    In hours of listening, I have never heard them tell me I am going to get rich.

    If they open someone’s heart to the teachings of Christ, I am all for it.

    There are many adult baby Christians out there. They did not have the benefit of Sunday school and wading into a life of Christianity. They need to know the Good News FIRST. Scare them off with a doctrine of suffering and you will never get them back.

    • Sky

      I’ve seen John Piper on Youtube. He not only made fun of Joel but he ripped apart his ‘Everyday a Friday’ book, laughed at it, saying, ‘Why not Everyday a Monday’? and his congregation laughed right along with him. I made a comment about that saying that John Piper was wrong in judging and mocking Joel. I said it was a sin and that he should pray for him and not go against him because it’s bad enough that atheists are against us, we don’t need our Christian brothers and sisters backstabbing us. The person who posted the video said he was a Christian and a John Piper supporter. He deleted my comment. I thought it was wrong to remove my comment because I like Joel and went against Piper for his actions. It didn’t seem very Christian to me. I’m not a fan of being PC on any site. I wasn’t about take up for anyone, pastor or not, in the wrong to stroke egos.

    • Lori

      I agree with you. Joyce Meyer really helped me to become the Christian that I am today. She isn’t perfect but because of her life she has been able to help a lot of people. She didn’t have a picture perfect life so people will listen. Also her corporation does a lot for children and women. If it wasn’t for them a lot of people would continue to go hungry.

  • toolman

    This is what I think of any “health and wealth” teachings – look at all the Apostles including Paul. Did any of them become rich? And how did they all die. History says all but John died a violent death and he was imprisoned on Patmos when he wrote down what Christ revealed to him in Revelations. He likely died there.

  • Steven Kay

    Wow Rick, i was really interested in reading this article, but you lost me just as quickly. You accuse these two of scriptural inaccuracy, and then you quickly do the same.

    Case and point, your #4 criticism of Joyce Meyer…”4. She teaches that words have power and you can release the power of Heaven through your words”… Um, this is accurate. Proverbs 18:21 states “Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof”.

    • Stef

      THANK YOU. I was about to look up the verse you quoted, but saw your comment first. Glad that not all others are immediately jumping on the “it’s cool to hate on popular preachers” wagon and at the same time ignoring key flaws in this article.

  • August 9, 2013 | Puddling About

    […] came across a great blog, Church is Messy, that calls out prosperity preachers, Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer.  I have long felt they are […]

  • Anonymous

    Wonderful words of wisdom against these 2. I have always believe they were false teachers after listening one time to either of them. Thank for saying what so many of us who have studied God’s Word, especially daily. Again, Thank you & may God bless you!!!!!

  • Anonymous

    I only listened to three partial statements by a female. I listen to Joyce Meyer a lot and it did not sound like her and the accent was way off. How do we know that you were being truthful with these posts?

  • Michelle

    Faith and spirituality are something that I struggle with on a daily basis. Not because I am not a Christian or do not believe in the Bible, but because of people like these. How are we to know what to believe? Who is real and who is maybe a brick or two shy of a full load? Who REALLY is an emissary of God or prophet? And when the real ones are here, how will we know when we’ve lived in this world where false prophets are on every street corner-not to mention coming through every road they can into our lives?
    We have so much thrown at us each day from so many directions that just ingesting all of it is overwhelming. There are “prophets” everywhere. There is scandal within the churches to make us question nearly everything in our religious education-and it happens in all of the major religions. There are the doomsday preachers who are touting the Bible as proof-we’ve watched many of them and their predictions come and go just in my 40-some years. There are those who are so far fetched it’s unfathomable, but then there are those like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer who do have a GOOD message and some wisdom to impart upon us.

    So, now that we’ve ingested as much as we can and processed it to the best of our abilities, how will we know who is THE ONE when the time comes?

  • Anonymous

    I listen to them for the nuggets of truth that they share. No one is spot on in their theology. Anyone who preaches about praying/accepting Jesus into your heart as a means of salvation is preaching something unbiblical and invented in the 1800s. Also, anyone preaching once saved, always saved is also preaching wrongly. But that doesn’t meant that you can’t learn from what they have to say. Humility is learning from everyone.

  • kh

    I was wondering what your stance is on the mysticism, comtemplative prayer that is coming into the church….even from John Piper….and good teachers like Ravi Z that call Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ when their doctrine is so wrong! I think that ‘tolerance’ or fear of being called ‘judgemental’ or harsh causes us to over look these kinds of issues.

    • Anonymous

      Just curious, what does that Catholic Church teach that is so wrong?

      • Marie

        Praying to saints, worshipping of Mary, Mary sits with Trinity, can only receive “sacraments” through priests, extra biblical catholic teachings elevated to equal importance with bible, and in case of conflict, extra biblical “Tradition” supercedes bible, made up pergatory, and used it to raise money when church was short of cash (“we will shorten your loved one’s time in Pergatory if you’ll pay”), “pope is divine”, tried to prevent lay people from reading the bible, shielded church reputation and riches rather than help 1) Jews being dragged off and killed during Hitler’s reign of terror, 2) protected pedophile priests while young innocents were left to twist in the wind.

      • Anonymous

        Anonymous wanted to know what the Catholic Church teaches that is wrong, not what people make believe the Catholic Church teaches is wrong. Actually, since you’ve broken Godwin’s Law, I shouldn’t even write this response.

      • Marie

        I absolutely answered the question posed. Those are church teachings and actions from the TOP.

  • bortmann

    Charles Stanley teaches the heresy a Christian can believe in doctrines of demons and deceiving spirits and still be saved. This shows how evil once saved always saved really is! [YouTube Charles Stanley: Can You Recognize False Teaching 1, T. 6:30-7:27]

  • Jeremy

    Anyone can get someones quote and use it against them. People are so used to hearing the lack of gospel that when they hear something else they call it the prosperity gospel.

  • Partin

    Rather than spend your time teaching the love of Christ & the truths of the Bible, you choose to focus your attack on 2 people who have dedicated their lives to serving Christ & helping others. You choose to waist your time & energy on trying to discredit 2 of God’s servants, who are fervently working for Him. Maybe you should have focused your energy on writing an article on the sin & evils being done each day in this world. Maybe you sit should reevaluate your ministry & exactly what you’re trying to do to further God’s Kingdom, but this sir is not it!

    • Stef

      Your argument is shockingly weak. What makes these “sin and evils done each day” you refer to any more horrid than promoting false doctrine? Sounds like it made you uncomfortable that two preachers you blindly followed were called out.

    • Marie

      God can correct and discipline His chosen teachers. He can use the voices of others to point it out. It’s up to Joel and Joyce as to whether they see truth in it. God knows.

  • Dixie Diamanti

    Remember it was right after Jimmie Swaggart called out the fellow believer Jim Baker on national TV that within 2 weeks his own sin was broadcast for the world to see…Touch not His anointed my brother….just preach Jesus and quit pointing at others ministries…God is the judge..you are not…Blessings!!!

    • bortmann

      Dixie,

      The danger of those preaching on TBN is there is no accountability. Viewers are often scolded not to judge God’s anointed. Benny Hinn once rebuked his listeners not to mention the names of ministers; no matter how sinful they are. For anyone attacking him, he threatens their children will pay for it.

      What is the fruit of such evil manipulation? Believers are refusing to judge between those serving God and those who aren’t. For many, the mere mentioning of false teachers is somehow dividing the church. Then why did Paul, Peter, and John reveal the names of those using false doctrine to deceive (2 Tim. 4:10, 2 Pet. 2:15-16, 3 John 1:9-10)?

  • Ann Kilter

    By their fruit you shall know them. They sow their money, expecting to get more. But they get heart ache. The leaders amass riches to themselves. Corruption is the mark of their lives.

    Rather, sow mercy, sow love, sow kindness, sow faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Sow good works. Care for others. Forgive one another as Christ has loved you and forgiven you.

    We are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God has prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10)

    Are amassing riches “good works”? Is getting a gorgeous new house a good work.

    James said faith without works is dead. The world is slipping away to hell while these people waste time and resources to obtain the good things of this world. They are wasting their lives.

  • Anonymous

    I’m scared for you to have judged these people. And not honoring the people God had put into authority. Do I agree with everything they say, probably not, but to judge them and call them false prophets is a very scary line to cross my friend.

  • Christine Cummins

    I’ve been studying Yeshua bar Yosef for my entire adult life. As I see it very few people actually ‘get’ the message he was trying desperately to impart to the world. He did not tell us to spend our time memorizing scripture. He told us that our faith was a continuous work in helping and taking care of one another. What good are words when people are in need of food, shelter, compassion, care and comfort? These ‘religious’ folks that are making money on spreading the so called word of God are the charletons. Faith is not about talking, it’s about doing. Going to church and treating your fellow man badly once you leave that building is not living the word.

  • Anonymous

    Jealousy is an ugly emotion.

  • Dena

    Very well said!!!!!!!

  • Chuck

    I tink you are taking some things out of context, for both of these people. Your interpretation of the scripture may be different, based on your own experiences that have shaped your life.
    Seems as if you’re telling people that God will not reward you for giving & living a Christian life, and I don’t believe that statement.
    I could be swayed by your argument had I not heard the voice of the Lord sending me a message through Joyce Meyer’s mouth.
    Lose the hate & preach the Gospel.

    • Stef

      Ever read Job? Seems like you might have skipped it.

    • Anonymous

      I agree with you 100%. Joyce turned my life around and her teaching keeps me in check. Satan loves to promote discord on superficial issues in order to keep Christians neutralized and ineffective.

      • Jaime

        Jesus turned your life around or Joyce did? Are you committed to truth? Are you committed to Jesus or Joyce?

        We can be easily deceived which is why the Bible warns us.

        If you accept Joyce’s teachings, then you agree that Jesus was the first born again human being and also agree with the other teachings she has that have been pointed out in this article.

        I hardly think that claiming Jesus was the first born again human being is just a superficial issue.

      • Nita Ostroff

        Jaime……he died on the cross and came back to life. What else would you call it, other than being born again (literally) after dieing for the sins of mankind?

      • Jaime

        Are you serious? Dying on a cross and coming back to life is NOT being born again.

        She said he was the first “born again” HUMAN BEING.

        We know as human beings, what it means to be born again and you should to. We MUST be born again because we are DEAD in SIN. Was Jesus dead in His sin? NO, because He did not sin and was not a sinner who needed salvation.

        She also says He stopped being the Son of God. That He was SIN and was not the Son of God.

        That is absolutely disgusting and everything in me is repulsed at those claims about the Lord Jesus Christ!

  • Steve

    I’ve never met either Joyce or Joel. But seeing that they love Jesus, we all need to be very careful when it comes to judging another ministry. Their leader happens to be Jesus. They may not do or say things the way you do. I’m quite sure they are not writing a blog talking about what you and I say and do that they disagree with. If I remember right, the primary words of Jesus were to love, and he warned us about judging.

    • Jamison

      Well said Steve! With all the scrutiny Christians face in the world today, publically tearing down one of God’s ministers is not a positive thing. So many points he made were cherry picked and taken out of context. Rick, you need to focus on your own ministry. Clearly, like the rest of us, you have work on yourself to do!

    • Stef

      Where did he warn us about judging?

  • Brandi Mackey

    Believing in Jesus isn’t enough. Even Satan believes in Jesus. You have to trust Him. You need to know that the Bible is the true word of God and that anyone not teaching from the Bible by adding to it or taking from it is m ot tea hing the truth. Avoid those teachinga for they are false. To believe in false tea hings is to be in unbelief of the truth. How can we trust in God if we don’t believe what He says in His word to be true. Expose those who try to teach lies in the name of God for they are not doing God’s will.

  • Kathryn

    It is so difficult to fight Satan and get people to any church on Sunday. I wonder if this is the best use of your pulpit. Satan loves it when those within the church argue and find fault with one another. Makes his mission a whole lot easier.

    As for going to seminary – my grandfather, a Vice President of Academic Affair at an accredited Theological Seminary ceased to acknowledge my existence when I was 4 because my parents divorced – and that was not good for his image. Going to Seminary does not guarantee one is a good example.

    • Stef

      It’s alarming that you would say “get people to church” rather than “get people to Christ”. They are not interchangeable. If they were, any religion which had a “church” would be a good thing?

      • Kathryn

        Please don’t twist my words. There is enough of that going on. The original post stated that he called out Joel and Joyce in a sermon. Therefor, I assume he was preaching in church. My grandmother used to say Satan worked hardest on Sunday morning – giving people many reasons (sleep, grumpy family members, car trouble, etc. etc.) not to actually go to church. This pastor has a captive audience once a week at best. I just wonder if he squandered his time.

  • Jonathan

    I was directed toward this interesting “theory” you have on these two people by way of FB. In all of this discussion the question I ask you is, your statement of “less fortunate Christians around the world” do you mean ones who don’t dive in head first to your teachings and “theories” of the word of God or do you mean financially, geographically or just plain ignorant in your assumption of the vast majority of Christians in the world. Very slippery slope you are starting down as well as encouraging people to follow you.

  • Stephanie Toombs

    Finally – truth is spoken. Have heard it for Joel Olsten, but must admit this is the first time I have seen anything about Joyce Meyer. I usually don’t voice my opinion about Ms. Meyer, as there are so many followers, but after seeing her one time many years ago, I felt the Holy Spirit was stirring in my soul her false teaching. I came out of that auditorium with such doubt, and even fought it, but eventually realized how I had to follow the Holy Spirit on His prompting. Thank you!

  • Brian Pasch

    Rick

    I thank you for being passionate and confident to share your thoughts to provoke a greater conversation within the Christian community. The article commentary, is painful at times to read, but it reflects the diversity of what we call Christianity. Reading the commentary shows the extremes that we need to tolerate in the name of Jesus.

    I encourage you to continue to share your thoughts and commentary. You will always find detractors and supporters, but neither are important if you are compelled to write from your heart.

    Brian

  • Stephen

    I’m sure Hank can get into it much deeper but both Joyce (and Joel via his father) were like Esau who traded their inheritance (in the truth) for the face value of something sounding like theology (but philosophy) in exchange.

    All of that (again, courtesy of HH) stems from EW Kenyon and plagiarized by Ken Hagin with select added scriptures in mainly part but few in whole and none in context.

    I almost traded my inheritance to be or pursue Joel’s brother in law in Arlington to be his producer/editor from 2002-2004. Biggest waste of my life and thank God – God prevented from ever happening. I saw the parade of names (and gullible sheep) go through and fleece the willing all too often. Finally, it was like the fables of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’ and ‘The Pied Piper,’ all combined into one.

    The real (dangerous) theology links Hagin through Oral Roberts and his heir apparent Ken Copeland. Their debauchery of theology in philosophy is just the ‘franchise of faith’ Joyce peddles (and Joel with a cotton candy version). I remember John MacArthur once saying “You’re best life now? If you follow that teaching it is only applicable for now. It has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God and neither will you if you take it for gospel.” I thought that was ‘strong’ when I first heard it. But its accurate. The Word Faith Movement, other than being a fraud, is dangerous. Its right up PT Barnum’s quote I’m sure they (WF names) bank on: “There’s a sucker born every minute,” and as Barnum added (‘And I’m going to sell them a ticket.’)

    Best move I ever made was to turn it off, no more listening on radio, tv, satellite, and especially not MP3s or tapes, cd’s or downloads. Books look good but aren’t and like trading one’s inheritance for a bowl of soup or cotton candy.

    After 4 years of it (and all along that path) I kept asking ‘when did Jesus stop being enough?’ But they don’t bank on people who are educated or deep into the word. They bank on those with light to no education of the Bible and spoon feed their translation. The formulas sound good (and the testimonies of miracles abound) but you can never really find the originating source (much like their books have no attribution or reference). Its like spending time with a pick pocket or thief. May feel good but once you leave you cannot find your wallet, jewelry or savior. In some sad cases those who follow them loose their sanity and souls.

    Thank you for a well written thesis and supporting paper.

  • Jordan

    I don’t see how it’s Christian to bash anyone, much less two people proclaiming to Gospel. They are human like the rest of us (you included) and they have things to sort out as well. Before pointing out their flaws and broadcasting their unclean hearts (even though I truly think they are doing the best they can), you need to pray about the cleanliness of your own heart. We need to focus on the big picture- God’s love, the Good News, and His Presence. The time isn’t coming, it’s here.

    “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:3-5

    In His name,
    daughter of The One and Only King

    praying for you

    • Stef

      Have you ever read the Bible? How about the verse where Jesus “bashes” “Christians”? And the prophets? And the disciples? Were they really always positive, approving, and tolerant no matter what people’s actions?

      And are you not “bashing” the writer of this article by writing this comment?

    • Stef

      James 5:19-20

      My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

      Proverbs 24:24-25

      Whoever says to the wicked, “You are in the right,” will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations, but those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.

      Just in case your ignorance is due to your lack of access to the Bible, here are a few verses.

      Also just wanted to say, I am not a Christian, I am not promoting the “gospel”, its just astounding how you people claim to know the book you supposedly base your life on. Sounds like you need to find a new religion.

  • Anonymous

    Wow, the scariest thing I think I heard in these comments (I confess I didn’t read them all) was that we all must find our path to Christ. That isn’t biblical. It’s mysticism. There is only one way. One Truth. One Life. The way is narrow. But all are welcome. We just can’t write our own map. We have to follow the one given.

    • Marie

      Did you mean the phrase “We all must find our path to HEAVEN?” You said “Christ” and that’s exactly what people who become Christians do on this earth. I think you may have meant “heaven”, not “Christ”. Big difference.

  • meshell

    Hmm, so we should just love people into hell? OH BROTHER! That is not love….we need to love people enough to tell them when they are being led contrary to God’s Word. It’s not us judging when we are giving GOD’S Word to them.

  • meshell

    Seriously people? You think we are suppose to overlook peoples teaching that are contrary to scripture because we are not suppose to judge?…that’s not love. We should love people enough to show them where they are wrong by showing them the truth in God’s Word. If they are believer’s we are suppose to judge. Try reading 1 Cor. 5:12.

  • ticklingwontdo

    Thanks RIck, we need more true believers to stand up for the truth. Jesus and Paul exposed false teachers. When you look at divisive people in the Bible, you’ll find we need to protect fellow believers.

  • Kelly

    I am no Bible scholar. I only know that at the tender age of 9, in my bedroom with my mother by my side, I accepted Jesus into my heart as my Lord and Savior. I believe that He died on the cross to save me from my sins and because of what He did for me, I will live for eternity in heaven with my Savior and Creator. The message of the gospel is a simple one as I see it. As for the rest, the Holy Spirit guides me and compels me to seek a personal relationship with Christ and rely on Him to reveal truth through the scriptures. I am not diminishing the importance of ministers and preachers of the gospel, but for me, I should never be dependent on anyone else to interpret God’s word. My relationship with the Lord is a personal one. The words of others, no matter how successful, well-studied, or famous should never replace my own personal journey through the scriptures and time alone with God in prayer and praise. Spread the gospel of Christ and encourage others in their journey….

  • windskipper

    I noticed a lot of Zigzaggers in here. We can know that God will take care of this issue in His own timing. His sheep will know His voice! http://cajunzigzagman.blogspot.com

  • Melissa

    My opinion of this kind of stuff may not be agreeable, but I believe it hurts the movement of people toward Christ. I understand the point of educating folks, but I also see Christians criticizing other Christians to be hurtful in the grand scheme. These kinds of semantics are part of the reason it took me so long to come to Christ and understand personal relationship. When we pick apart other pastor’s theology, we discredit all Christianity. I heard Andy Stanley speak to this exact thing at the Global Leadership Summit today.

  • Mike

    First of all, ‘calling out” someone as a “false teacher” isn’t exactly Biblical behavior, it’s actually being judgmental. That should be anyone’s first clue. Secondly, his logic is easily debunked. In the following paragraph of this article, he writes: This is not the Gospel. This is a false Gospel. Joel teaches that we open ourselves to God to get more from God. He teaches that we use our words to speak into existence a better reality. This straight from the Word of Faith Movement. This is not what is taught throughout the New Testament. Consider what the Apostle Paul wrote. And remember that he wrote this while in prison.

    Philippians 4:10-13 I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.
    What Joel is saying can also be viewed as heeding the call to do unto others as you would have done to you. It isn’t about material wealth, it’s about Spiritual wealth. Even for those who may not follow Christianity, it is widely accepted that helping someone else is a positive human endeavor. Actions beget similar actions. Try it sometime. Say something really positive to someone you care deeply for. Check out the reaction. Then turn around and say something terrible to the same person. Are you still expecting the same reaction from the positive statement? How did it make you feel to say something wonderful? How did it make you feel to say something terrible?

    Christians were given explicitly clear instructions as to how to proceed with the matter of false prophets. One doesn’t have to read this article bit by bit to know what they need to know. Instead, try reading this: 1 John 4:1-6 ESV
    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. … All the shoulder patting aside for pointing out that someone doesn’t believe exactly as you do, can anyone explain how this article helps anyone love someone else in the manner that they love themselves? Wasn’t that part of the most important message Christ left? Now let’s see if I can find that scripture about loving God above all others and who was next in line. If you want to find it, and read it for yourself, think about this afterwards: The two greatest commandments, the two root commandments are precisely the ones the Pharisees kept breaking. Observance of the law for them wasn’t an act of divine worship but rather one of self-promotion. Rather than their observance of the law leading to love of neighbor, it leads to scorn of neighbors who fail to live up to their standards (see how they treat the blind man in John 9:24-34). Note what Paul, the converted Pharisee, says: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal (1 Corinthians 13:1).”

    • Stef

      James 5:19-20

      My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

      Proverbs 24:24-25

      Whoever says to the wicked, “You are in the right,” will be cursed by peoples, abhorred by nations, but those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.

      You people are KILLING ME. Looks like you need to edit your article to say “calling out someone is not exactly something I want you to do so here’s a blatant lie claiming I know what the Bible says”.

      Also just wanted to say, I am not a Christian, I am not promoting the “gospel”, its just astounding how you people claim to know the book you supposedly base your life on. Sounds like you need to find a new religion.

  • Anonymous

    This is what is wrong with the belief in sola scriptura. Anyone can pick up a bible and interpret it. Nowhere in scripture does it say that scripture alone is the only rule of faith. This is why I can go to a Baptist church and the pastor will read from the King James and teach baptism doesnt save and then drive a block away to a Lutheran church and the same bible will be used only the pastor will teach that baptism does save. How can anyone know who is right and who’s wrong. The answer is Jesus established a church that had the authority to make these kind of decisions. He established 1 true church not 20 thousand plus denominations that teach something different.

    • Marie

      The one that made up pergatory, praying to Mary, selling less time in pergatory for loved ones when they needed quick cash, ignored the Nazi killing of Jews, ignored their pedophile priests, teach followers to pray to saints, priests can’t marry so that their widows & children won’t inherit church property, added to & changed the bible and when called on it, named these extra biblical teachings “tradition” and said they were EQUAL to (some say supercedes) the bible? THAT church? God decentralized churches at Pentecost: different tongues teaching the gospel, all using the BIBLE (solo scriptura) as the source. The Holy Spirit speaks to each of us individually through the Bible. It’s used to teach, shape, discipline and correct EACH one of us as we each read it. That is the ONLY way we can discern if a church is walking the true path, as God has laid out for us. Everyone starts their faith journey differently. As a new Christian, I enjoyed hearing Joel and Joyce. But as I began to study the bible more and more and matured as a Christian, I realized they weren’t a good fit anymore. (Certainly praying to saints and all that garbage went out the window long ago) God warned us in the Bible there would be MANY false prophets and churches, especially in the last generation, the end times, which we are in. But he didn’t say all of them were. We are supposed to stay in the word as much as possible, daily, even, to keep a sharp eye and be able to discern the shallow ones. Replacement Theology was the deal breaker for me with Joel Osteen. It was nice for a feel good face on Christianity, but the Replacement Theology signaled the end for me.

    • Marie

      Yes, anonymous, ANYONE can pick up a bible and interpret it, through the intervention of the Holy Spirit. God left us that book to provide guidance, instruction and reproof. Solo Scriptura is what keeps churches and pastors in check. For instance, when one large church proclaims itself to be the “one true church” and tries to keep the bible from the masses, is overrun with corruption, prays to saints, etc etc — in violation of the Word of God

  • Robin Covington

    You areso right! It’s the old health and wealth story and this is
    just not Biblical!

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  • Ronald

    If I may say sir. We all will give an account of ourselves before God. That includes Joyce and Joel. We are all sinners yes. We are to strive to be perfect as Jesus was perfect. If we could simply observe the first Commandment and obey, then all else would fall into place. But we are human with sin in our lives. Christians are forgiven but still we sin. And we must acknowledge it before a Holy God. And never give up striving to be as God wants us to be. Thank you for sharing this. I really didn’t know about these things of Joyce. I don’t know Joel really at all. But through you God has enlightened me. May God bless you and all that you do for Him.

  • Andre Lefebvre

    Well, as you say: “Church is messy, and that’s a good thing…” There are teachers for children, others for teenagers, others for adults, and both Joyce and Joel certainly find a purpose with those who are still learning the basic rudiments of the faith and walk with God. They don’t cover everything, and package their content in a way that is media-friendly. I would be careful to not invite the same scrutiny on yourself, as it would tie you put without end to answer for every single word. When we expect perfection from one another, we do not show an understanding of the Gospel of the kingdom. We ALL know in part, AND prophesy in part.

    I will say this, though: the so-called prosperity gospel is no gospel at all. They’re talking about faith. The distortion of the message that has seen so many corrupted by greed is a disgrace. There is a chasm between Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen. I know some theologians will be able to spend years and dozens of books pointing to the errors they find. I have yet to find one who simply responds by stating what the Gospel is, so a child understands it. I miss that. Every time.

    My opinion,

    Andre

  • Derp

    Looks like you need to read that bible again. Jesus did become sin God had to turn away and not look at him, when he took on the sin of the world. Sin separates us from God and on the cross he was separated from God, when he said “Father why have you forsaken me?” As far as Jesus going into hell I am not sure on, but you read too much into what these two were saying. Maybe they should call you out…

  • Anonymous

    I’m sure glad he said he wasn’t against properity, what with all the chip commercials at the end. gotta make a living I guess, just tackey to make yours while condemning others for making theirs.

    • Damon Whitsell

      For your information, wordpress.com offers free blogs to those who want one and to recoup the cost wordpress.com runs adds to some visitors to free blogs if the visitor is not logged into a wordpress.com account. This pastor, or any wordpress.com blogger, does not make money on those adds

  • Anonymous

    Here, here! Exactly!!! Yes, I have read this whole thread and find it ridiculous. Heretics? I feel like I am back in the middle ages. Are there going to be public executions in the town square? We are not God. We are not perfect. Everyone will interpret the Word of God differently and practice it differently. Not everyone is a false teacher, or in it for the money or even completely correct in their advice or Biblical teachings. We are human, we are not God and we are ALL sinners in different ways. Bottom line, if a person truly believes in God, study His word, love one another (that means love everyone), and pray for one another. Go ahead and listen to what others have to say if you want to. There is nothing wrong with that. Just know that if someone is saying or teaching something questionable, look it up in the Bible. That is the ultimate answer book. The ultimate focus should be on God and not “throwing stones” at others. If you have time to “throw stones” then you’re focusing on the wrong thing.

  • Gina

    I believe they are following Gods call on they’re life and they are accountable to God not to you. You need to focus on Gods calling not destroying others . To judge by ones fruit.. There’s more fruit than I’ve ever seen in ANY DENOMINATION THEY ARE NOT TAKING PEOPLE AWAY FROM GOD THEY ARE pointing to a relationship with Christ. I will not listen or read your material

    • Anonymous

      I agree with you Gina!! This is not GOD!! He is coming against his brother and sister in Jesus Christ……therefore he is coming against JESUS!!! Jesus came for the unity of the church not to tear it up with silly beliefs….not division…..be very careful of coming against THE CHURCH and other professing believers……Be not deceived!!!

  • Cindy Rowan

    Rick,
    Thanks be to God that he holds all things in his hands, left up to is our own depravity and wickedness we would taint all we touch. But, by the grace of God and guidance of the Holy Spirit we called to a higher standard to always extend mercy, go and help our brother. While, I will not debate (my opinion in that regards is not the subject of my writing) this list of false teachers, I am having a hard time finding the heart of God in they way this is done. God is love and we can only be in awe of his mercy, and beyond grateful. In this awesome journey to take up the cross the two accused should be given the opportunity to respond to very serious calling out—as false teachers. Did you personally contact them? As they should be given the opportunity to respond AND If they are in fact false teachers who will lay down their life and go after the one….in this case you have called out two. What makes Christianity different, Jesus a radical son of man and son of God who demonstrated a radical love of Grace…..I pray that we too take every opportunity to be that kind of love

  • rene

    I guess we are going to find out in heaven whether what you believe to be correct, comes to be true. What a slap on the face if they are both there? Doesn’t the bible says that we will find surprises in heaven? Why are we so quick to speak and judge? What if instead of judging we were to preach the gospel and seek the power of the holly spirit.
    Wonder what would happen if we spent more time in prayer and fasting???

  • mickcgorman

    One persons interpretation of a fairy story over another’s? Every preacher I have ever heard has asked for money, it is just a matter of quantity that bugs you.

  • Cindy E.

    I find it very interesting that the link to your blog came across my Facebook news feed. I completely agree with you about Joel Osteen. The man makes my spirit feel yucky. As for Joyce, I haven’t listened to her in years but if she’s under the influence of the Enemy then what comes out of her mouth will be false. It will be just enough truth to draw them in and then twisted in a way that others won’t recognize. We MUST know The Word of God and BE in RELATIONSHIP with Holy Spirit so we can KNOW when we are being deceived.

    I’ve been having many dreams of late about The Church. There are far TOO MANY people who are DECEIVED and believe they are true Followers yet they don’t have any idea what it means to TOTALLY SURRENDER their life to Jesus Christ. It’s time for The Church to RISE up and BE The CHURCH! Jesus is COMING SOON!

  • Mike

    The Word of God calls false prophets & false teachers ”antichrists” & that’s a huge deal & must be judged. The person that quoted the Matthew 7:1 ”Do not judge or you also will be judged” out of context, understand that Jesus goes on to say that by the same measure you judge others, you’ll be judged by. Hence the illustration of removing the plank from tour eye *so that you can see clearly* enough to remove the sawdust from another’s. The brother writing this blog sees clearly enough to identify an antichrist’s false teaching. Furthermore, the Bible demands that the church judge sin of every kind in 2 Corinthians 5. It says not to judge the world since they are expected to act like lost heathens, but when gross immorality & heresy is being taught in the body of Christ, then it’s absolutely time to ”Expel the immoral brother [or sister].”

  • Stef

    Before I say anything else, let me first agree with you: both Joyce an Joel’s doctrine is very flawed.

    Unfortunately, your logic is almost as flawed as their doctrine. First of all, who are you to decide at what point someone is making too much money and spending too much on furniture? That is STRICTLY your opinion, does not make your point any stronger, and is in no way biblical or logical. I could say the same thing about you, since you probably own a car, I could say that I think it’s repulsive that you would own a car instead of doing X with your money instead. Who can argue with me? No one, because that is an emotional statement built on NOTHING. In this case, yes I agree that is somewhat absurd of Joyce, but I would NEVER use it in an attempt to convince others that she’s not godly.

    And as far as you pretending to be a non-sugar coating Bible follower, why did you not mention 1 Corinthians 14:34? “Women should not speak in church”? Would that kill your popularity? Would it challenge your faith? Have you quieted controversial verses like that and put them in the back of your mind to avoid discomfort?

    You had some good points, it’s too bad you ruined them.

  • ted

    it’s possible your mind is closed to the wonderful possibilities God has in store for all of us. Expect a miracle. There is no benefit from knowing all that tomorrow brings. We want to give ourselves a sense of security by being able to predict the future. But our ability to know is limited and by trying to prove to ourselves we know what’s coming we limit the possibilities, we blind ourselves to God’s gifts. Having an open mind is not being irresponsible – that is foolishness to think we should make no preparation because God is going to fix everything. But God never said we had to di everything alone.

  • Anonymous

    Jenni Tibbett Kellar I don’t know much of anything about Joel but I hate that people lump him and Joyce together in this. I’m tired of seeing it, honestly. If people would take the time to listen to what she says, ALL of it, NOT pick it apart, they’d see she’s not a “false teacher” at all, nor does she say we’re all gonna get everything we want. Satan is happy when he can cause division in the church, and this man and others like him accomplish exactly that. She herself says she doesn’t have it all right, nobody does, and we’ll all be surprised when we get to heaven and see what we had wrong. But if our core beliefs are the same, why why why argue and split hairs and speak badly of each other. Does it accomplish anything at all for God’s kingdom…or only satan’s??? We have better things to focus on, like all the people who are dying and going to hell, and all the hurting people who don’t know how much they’re truly adored by God. Let’s focus on that instead of bashing people’s character “in God’s name”!!!!!

  • anon.

    I’m thinking that Joel may not even be a Christian….My reasoning, he can’t even give the Gospel message when asked. Some on here act like if you name the name of Christ your a Christian. Didn’t Jesus say, “not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven”!?

  • Anonymous

    I did not read all this stuff…and don’t say either way who is wrong but please spend your time on people who are really bad to take apart. Those two people have helped a lot of people more than me. Use your pulpit to draw people to the truth not take apart others who have helped more than hurt. Learn from Billy
    Graham’s example. Love to all

  • Mary Alice

    Amazing how people who believe the prosperity gospel are prosperous! It behooves us as Christians to separate the truth from error. That’s why we stay in the Word; that’s why the veil was torn in two, giving us access to the Father without going through a mediator. The Word says “other sheep have I that are not of this fold.” Central truths–virgin birth, one way to get to God, issues like that–are just that: central, and should not be set aside. Other than that, I think we should hear, rightly divide, and move on.

  • Diane

    Just have to say…..All of your Joyce Meyers stuff is old material. She has helped me more than people from my own church who turned their back on me. She admitted she had no idea when she first started and if you listened to her currently, she preaches the Gospel and you are picking someone apart who is bringing so many to God. I didn’t know God until I turned my TV on one night and she spoke to my heart. Don’t you have anything better to do?

  • R Wayne Hamilton

    Thanks Rick. Reading the false views that are being taught as truth helps me realize you are right on target.

  • Miss Sara (@misssaraatrspt)

    This post is dangerous if you ask me. The writer spent A LOT of time trying to sabotage 2 ppl when most of us know: God has the final say. The snippets that are presented here are only portions of a whole teaching, which can easily be taken out of context…. and if both preachers are on TV daily why not show the actual shows? We don’t even know if these are actually these preachers. What a waste of time, energy & effort!

    You got your traffic for the day on your site, congrats.

  • NUGGETS [8/10/13] | Counseling One Another

    […] Why I Called Out Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer – “I have been preaching for 20 years.  Yesterday I did something that I have never done before in a sermon.  I publicly called out false teachers and named them by name.” […]

  • Lyndon

    I have prayed for years for the Lord to once again establish the gift of the Prophet to the church. 1 Peter 4:17
    “For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?” Be bold, be strong and let your words be from God, for it is His church and He will finish what He has started! Thank you brother for your obedience.

  • michelle

    I read the entire blog and the only thing I would ask of you is to please back everything up with scripture,

  • Tammy

    I wrote this to a friend who posted your message:
    I’m sure he followed scripture and tried to get a hold of them with his points. I found it interesting that, once again like many Christians, he pointed out about the money. All for the tenth commandment. This preacher would love to have the problem of people sending him that much in support of his ministry. We Christians always bicker over when a Christian has too much money. Joyce was the only big name televangelist that, when called upon by a Congressional investigation to turn over books and info, her ministry turned everything over without hesitation. She was a real witness in this situation. I’m sure over time she has wrote something goofy, like some preachers who have to say oops. Before I heard her talking about the power in your words The Lord started convicting me on that one. He really spoke to me that our words are the very thing that moves mountains and the we complain or get down or say something bad? In fact, I find it interesting that she will preach on something the Lord has been working in me for sometime. I know she’s not perfect but I hate to see the Church tear each other apart. She is the only big time evangelist, besides RC Sproul, that was preaching about the immorality in our government (and this wasn’t at the time of the investigation). When I was this pastor’s young age I was more than happy to tear apart Saints in the church but, at our age, I can see how we need unity more than what we have (not unity at all costs) today. I’m not a person who watches Joyce all the time but The Lord really uses her in people’s lives. I really don’t know much abt Osteen.

  • anastasiya gutnik

    this is completely asinine. “I have been preaching for 20 years. Yesterday I did something that I have never done before in a sermon.” so he admits he has not been warning the sheep about the wolves. the apostle paul called out men publicly by name and if you are too afraid to call out false teachers by their name then you have no place in a pulpit. none.

    and then he links to a video of john piper explaining the dangers of the prosperity gospel when piper himself is a false teacher (christian hedonism and charismatic gifts as well as embracing the critical text and rejecting the TR and KJV) and invited rick warren to preach at his desiring god conference as a brother in christ when warren is a damnable apostate. this preacher is messed up and without discernment and it is likely he is not even a christian himself.

  • Lynn LaGrone

    I agree with all that is said however, why have you not called out other “false prophets.” To me there are some more that are even more blatant than Joel and Joyce—for instance what is your take on Mike Murdock, Jim Bakker, Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis and the list goes on and on.

    • anastasiya gutnik

      did you read the first sentence of his post? “I have been preaching for 20 years. Yesterday I did something that I have never done before in a sermon.” he has not been calling out anyone. this so-called preacher has not been warning the sheep of the wolves and he admits it. then he has the gall to link to a video by john piper when piper himself is an apostate charismatic who thinks of rick warren as his brother in christ.

  • Bill Ruth

    I know JO personally. He’s sincere and reaching thousands more than the traditional preachers. He makes his $ off books, not preaching. If I write a book, it will b my $ too. I wouldn’t lump him in with Joyce M. They are very different. I don’t know much about her. But, knocking a successful preacher who is effectively reaching people with the Gospel, whether it be a simplistic Gospel or not, is simply sour grapes.

    • anastasiya gutnik

      IT IS NOT THE GOSPEL that he is reaching people with. the only reason people like you and others flock to joel osteen is because god has withdrawn his grace from you.

    • Marie

      I know Muslims who are kind and sincere, too. Doesn’t change the fact they are on the wrong path, being led by a false god. Joel can be sincere AND wrong. If truly a servant of God, he’s humble enough for reproof and correction where needed.

  • anastasiya gutnik

    Those who go after false teachers do so because God withholds his grace from them. We cannot know why and we do not know why. We only can assert that God, in his infinite wisdom, knows what he is doing. There is no solution, then, to the problem because to pose it as a problem is to forget the glorious mercy of divine predestination.

  • Letthetruthbeheard

    The funny is all you people that are accusing Joyce haven’t even helped a quarter of the people she has. I am not a follower or listener of her but I know she does Hand of Hope and has been there for every tragedy giving food, supplies and anything she can. Also in St Louis giving backpacks and school supplies. Look in the mirror you judgmental hypocrites. You aren’t following doctrine because you are not helping widows or the poor just trying to teach your self-righteous doctrine. Shame on you.

    • anastasiya gutnik

      joyce meyer has helped NO ONE with her FALSE gospel of positivity and intrinsic self worth. she is only leading people to hell. so what if people are eating bread? with out the bread of life they will go straight to hell. there are plenty of folks who preach the true gospel who are also help the needy.

  • Debbie Zimmerman Lynch

    why do you think you have to be the HOLY Spirit and judge others? Its not your job. I have learned much from Joel and Joyce’s teaching. Joyce herself says she would never talk about another pastor, so what gives you the right to judge these people who have won many to Jesus. how you are judging them, you will be judged by God. I would hate to be in you shoes. you are full of pride. I will be praying for you

    • anastasiya gutnik

      you have learned nothing of the true gospel of jesus christ from joyce and joel because they do not preach it. they preach a message of positivity and intrinsic self worth. they do not preach jesus christ dead, buried, and resurrected. they do not preach against sin. they do not preach about justification, sanctification, holy living, or anything else that comes with the gospel of christ. they preach living your best life now and having a positive attitude. they are leading people to hell and the only reason you listen to them and love their teaching is because god has withdrawn his grace from you.

  • Marie

    I think what’s even worse is that Joel Osteen’s mission statement for his church includes Replacement Theology. Go to the Lakewood Church website and look for their church mission statement. It will provide a link to another website’s and there it is. Replacement Theology says that Israel permanently lost God’s favor, replaced by Christians. Nothing could be more false. It’s also a slippery slope to anti semitism in some churches, as evidenced by the Methodist & Presbyterian national governing organizations to urge divestment from Israel IN WRITING to their followers, to punish Israel. Despicable act, built on a lie.

    • anastasiya gutnik

      read the book of galatians. the church is israel. members of ethnic israel, jews by blood, are apostate from israel. god only has one people and that is the church, everyone grafted into jesus christ. EVERYONE OUTSDE OF CHRIST is not a part of the true israel.
      Romans 2:28-29: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

      • Marie

        Do your own homework on Replacement Theology. The letter directing people to divest from Israel was for the nation of Israel, the Jews. Replacement Theology is not what you are speaking of.

  • Debbie Zimmerman Lynch

    rick Henderson is a false teacher. because many read his work they will dismiss Joyce and Joel and perhaps that is who God wanted them to listen too. the stuff that is written about them is only half truths. Do you always believe the media? does the media always tell the truth.

  • James Webster

    Christ told the rich, young ruler to go sell what he had and give the money to the poor. The ruler said he was almost convinced to be a follower of Christ. How much have Joyce and O’steen sold to give money to the poor.
    How much has Obama sacrificed to give to poor relatives? They preach
    Don’t do as I do, do as I say.You cannot buy oneself rich.

  • Erik D.

    To this day, I have never found one ounce of good that has come out of calling out another pastor or minister in ministry. You can reach people that I can not and I can reach people that you can not. We drive different vehicles to get to our destination.

    There is so much more to Lakewood Church than Joel Osteen. His father built a strong foundation at Lakewood (with the help of God, of course) for many years. That is why this church has been so successful. And the theology is based on the Assembly of God church. That is what it once was and may still be. He also has a great staff working with him. You’ll find the same thing with people like Bill Gaither…he knows how to build a team.

    There are many times that Joel Osteen has been ambushed by these news and talk shows. Why he does subjects himself to these interviews is beyond me but they always seem unfair. I would like to see you in a room of 4 or 5 liberals and see how you defend yourself without any support.

    I bet if you were on TV everyday and made an appearance on popular talk shows every once in a while, I could pick you apart just like you are doing Joel and Joyce.

    My suggestion is that you focus on how to effect your community rather than tearing another person down. The left-ist media knows how to do that very well and can do a way better job at it than you.

    If what they are doing makes God angry, then he will do them what he did to Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart and Robert Tilton. God is in control and will always be.

    • Andre Lefebvre

      Erik D. : Great points. The part about Joel’s church and team is important. The staff and volunteers of Lakewood (hundreds of people possibly), take newborns in Christ through classes and formation.

      @RICK: From what I have heard Joel preach, he is known for teaching one core thing: God’s promises are true, and we should trust Him in everything, and persevere believing until we see His answer come. Some people will spend decades believing in Him to finally see an answer to prayer. Joel’s message isn’t for the flaky ones – he points to the difficulties, tragedies, lack, but brings God’s perspective into it: that He has a purpose in it, and it will result in fruits to His glory.

      Believers don’t spend years reciting the same “desire of their heart” as if they never mature and grow in their understanding of God’s purposes in their lives. At some point, they also hit discouragement, unbelief, they revise their heart’s desire, seek God’s will and study Scriptures, some also need to make sure they are not just using the Word as witchcraft and empty repetitions. It’s a journey of faith and discovery of God’s goodness: “Though you slay me…” said Job.

      It’s too simplistic, and frankly a bit carnal or worldly, to tear apart a “media persona” without digging deeper into the reality of their teachings, kingdom fruit and community.

      I can’t speak about Joyce Meyer as I haven’t heard much from her. But I know she has helped a whole lot of women to decide to be women and mothers of stature in the Lord, and not just evangelical doormats. Good for her and for them.

      Why not develop a series of messages for your congregation that would bring the proper balance you seem to lament, into the message of God’s faithfulness in providing for us daily, as we seek His kingdom? And maybe let go of any church salary (20 years is a long time without working with your hands) for a few years and be an example?

      Too many have claimed they should be like Paul with regards to rebuking others, while they themselves do not have his character nor his calling. Let’s be careful with the souls God assigns to us, and let’s pursue wisdom and Christ-likeness…

    • Marie

      Martin Luther might disagree with you.

  • Anonymous

    Sounds like a “right finder” article. I am a better Christian than so and so because….. Don’t let Satan give you a false sense of confidence by condemning others. I highly doubt the Lord will condemn Joyce and Joel when they get to Heaven because the “details” of their faith don’t match the author of this Blog. Many have come to Christ and accepted Jesus as their Savior thru their teachings. THAT my friend is what Heaven rejoices over!!!

  • Sully

    Judge not lest you be judged does not say dont judge. It means that our lives will come under scruitny as well. We are called to judge other peoples actions but not their hearts. God alone is judge of heart but we are to judge peoples words and actions to see if they line up with Scripture.

  • Kathy

    These teachers speak of Christ as our savior who died on the cross for us and the only way to heaven.
    Is that what you teach?
    They teach he is the son of God died for our sins.
    Is that what you teach?
    The other details you are referring to do not prevent someone from becoming a Christian and living a Christian life. People under any teaching can misunderstand or exaggerate any teaching. I’ve seen this occur. Lets not be so hateful. I went to a mainline church where I felt nothing I did, gave thought or experienced was enough, it came across as” that’s good BUT is it good enough”. Nothing was. You sound the same. These people are spreading Christianity differently than you are so be it.

  • Chris Kitchens

    So many replies are of the “but you are criticizing a fellow pastor”. When people are misleading literally tens of thousands of people per day, they deserve some criticism. The only way you could possibly believe Osteen is to only listen to him and abandon the bible. The bible constantly contradicts what this guy promises. God never promised his followers riches. He promised us salvation through grace. We don’t deserve it, we can do nothing to earn it, and the main focus of Christ is love. Not money or worldly success. Worldly success is defined by man anyway. I would rather have nothing in this life than to end up separated from God at the end of it. “I don’t want to gain the whole world and lose my soul”…

  • Christian

    How ironic: a false teacher “calling out” false teachers!

    “To the law and to the tesimony, if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them.”

    “Anyone who breaks the least of these commendments and teach others so, will be least in the kingdom of heaven. But anyone who keeps and teaches them shall be be great in the kingdom of heaven.””

  • Jenna

    You should watch the documentary Kumare. It is about a man who pretends to be a guru and helps people become better. Pretending or not, who cares as long as they are making those people better? Maybe these preachers are a wonderful stepping stone in their followers spiritual journey.

  • James

    Joyce Meyer has a lot of faults, but I have seen her reach people who would’ve never taken an interest in Christ until hearing her – myself included. From my understanding she was not a trained Bible teacher and never went to seminary, yet she has reached and helped millions. She and Osteen target the lost and seem to focus on basic level Christianity, often using their own experiences. I trust the Holy Spirit will help listeners grow and mature beyond the material these two present. God is big enough to take the seed they’re planting and grow from it, as he has done with me. Quit dividing Christians – we have enough opponents.

    • Sully

      The problem is not that these two teachers are reaching people but rather the message they are reaching them with. As older more mature believers we are to love and protect the younger ones in the faith. Calling out false prophets and warning others of them is a form of that love and protection. God raises up people in His church to do just that.

      • Marie

        Brilliant point, eloquently expressed. I, too, enjoyed the messages of Joel and Joyce when I was a new Christian. At the same time, I was staying in the Word. I attended workshops & bible studies. As God molded and shaped my worldview, I gained more clarity — as if the thousands of preachers and doctrines and denominations were narrowed down because my ability to discern was getting sharper. I could move aside those that were too far afield. As a big picture comes into focus as you adjust the lens. I left Joel and Joyce behind, and continue my faith journey, always researching the beliefs, associations and mission statements of pastors. God will lead you to the right way. Just prayerfully ask.

  • Karen

    All these replies that refuse to see Rick is correct on this just points out the fog out there in the Christian world. If you already have the wool pulled over your eyes your not going to see it anyway.

  • Sally

    Green isn’t flattering on anyone…

    • Sully

      No Sally green is not flattering but neither is allowing the gospel to be perverted or allowing false teachers to continue misleading people.

  • Kristin Mitchell

    This is truly one of the saddest things I’ve read in all my life. If we dedicated half of the energy we have exerted (in reading/commenting on this blog, investigating the sin in the lives of people we don’t know, and tearing down other believers) to telling them about the LOVE of God, then we could really do something great for the Kingdom.

  • Ima

    Another false gospel. al Quada flew planes in the WTC and caused them to collapse because that is what the government says they did and even showed us planes on TV. They did not tell us that S government contractors who were experts in demolitions were doing construction/rehab on the towers, they did not tell us that they powered down the towers on 9/8,9/9, and 9/10 for completing the electrical connections for the demolition timers, they did not tell us that those clouds of dust were not caused by fire with black smoke, but instead were caused by high explosive, high energy demolition charges which are clearly evident in any picture showing the sides of the buildings. What the pictures show is a forty five degree demolitions cut on every girder going the circumference of the building, they also show a cloud of h. e. explosive on the upper floor, a growing cloud on the middle floor and a little cloud on the lower floor. The larger cloud on the upper floor shows that the detonations took place first and had time to grow the high energy cloud whereas the lower floor clouds had just started. The did not tell us that Marvin Bush was on the board of directors of the company doing security and repairs, they did not tell us that Raytheon executives died along with the top FBI agent who understood Al Queda (and could refute the official story), they did not tell us that Raytheon had completed test flights of pilotless aircraft for black ops, They did not tell us that they had offered the Taliban money in order to have clearance to put an oil pipeline through Afghanistan a few months earlier, they did not tell us that the Taliban refused so they alerted US forces and just waited for the American populace to be duped into vengeance so that the US would be willing to go into Afghanistan to put in Mr Cheney’s pipeline. And Mr Cheney? They did not tell us that he was in the command center running a scenario with NORAD putting over 25 false targets on the Air Traffic Control screens in the midst of the hijackings, THey did not tell us that the interceptors went at 30 percent speed and could not intercept the aircraft, and they did not tell us that Mr Cheney personally held he intercepters back. No, we believed them and were duped. Hell burns hot for liars, thieves, and murderers. Flight 103 over Lockerbie is another story… blamed on Libya through planted evidence when it was the US CIA taking out DIA agents who found out about the Beirut drug run (Flight 103) which was used to finance their Iran-Contra black ops under George HW Bush Veep. Libya’s leader received pay off money from the US Fed and then was executed recently by a French special agent… we were told it was Libyan rebels. Duped, Lied to. Another false gospel.

  • anonymous

    Now you know why I don’t go to church…People can’t say anything without someone being critical of them. People need to pray for their other brothers and sisters in Christ and shut up. When you are perfect and don’t have any issues and walking in the love that Jesus declared then you will be so busy so you won’t have time to point out others faults. Hypocrites.

      • Anonymous

        Reading this post and similar ones…..reading through all the comments…do i feel helped????? Oooh Nooh….am soooconfused and lost about the whole topic…i cant give any way forward but am just sad that we just cant clearly see the truth/the ryt direction and am sure God is sad too…am a christian and feel so disillusioned by this whole debate..wldnt imagine what a non christian wld feel…bottom line however is knowing God personally and seeking after his truth..the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth…he gives us discernment…shldnt we all be in agreement of truth and false? why are we soo divided? do we all have a close walk with God? are we all taking the initiative to read the word for ourselves? or are we lazy? are we all working out our own salvation? does the spirit guide us? or are we being guided by other people? ultimate guidance and truth shld be by his spirit….why all the confusion then? why cant we all be in agreement? why cant we all interpret the word rytly? why all this division in the body of christ??? why why why…May God heal his body…Amen.

  • George Arnold

    I think if we take enough time, you can find heretical statements by EVERY preacher on earth. Any time we make the effort to teach people how to apply the teachings of the Bible to their lives, there is opportunity for both mistake in expression by the teacher and misinterpretation by the receiver. Having said that, there are some major themes of doctrine that can not be denied. One of these relate to the nature of who God is … And I can tell you this … He is not a magician and a bellhop. Word of Faith/prosperity preaching is false, as is pure Calvinism (the saved have already been determined). Are we going to suffer in this world? Absolutely. Do we HAVE to be destitute and afflicted? No. We are not all Job. Neither are we Solomon. Please understand. I believe in a logical God. If we fail to understand the logic of God’s way, the failure is from our incomplete knowledge, not God’s mistake. Remember, the Bible is not “The Unabridged History of The Universe.” It is the complete manual for understanding the nature of man’s relationship with his Creator. The Holy Spirit plays a part in our understanding of that manual. Too often, we left our experience teach us, instead of the Spirit. This leads to many errors and misinterpretations of scripture. ALL believers are guilty of this. Some fundamentals cannot be denied, but the vastness of the scripture can give anyone enough ammo to contradict the theology of another. The key isn’t just contextually within a passage, but looking at God’s complete message throughout scripture. If you want one verse to hang your hat on, may I suggest, Micah 6:8.

  • windskip Courville

    There are many here that seem to Zigzag with their thoughts!…http://cajunzigzagman.blogspot.com

  • James Vincent Long

    Thank you for posting this. When The Lord turned my life around about 4 years ago(prodigal son testimony), I was craving to eat God’s word day and night. I used to watch tons of sermons on TBN and got really into Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, and every prosperity gospel teacher. I didn’t really know what was solid theology and what was crap. As I was still watching TBN and into these prosperity gospel teachers, I was also plugged into my church and my college ministry. The college pastor at the time was a solid and reformed in his theology. He began to point me in the right direction by showing me really what the gospel is and how the cross and Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection is center and power of the gospel. After actually reading the bible and studying the Word, I began to see that the prosperity gospel is a joke. I currently am attending Eterntity Bible College in Simi Valley, CA(through the Cornerstone church, founder is Francis Chan) and I’ve just diving deeper into God’s word and growing closing to him. But one thing I love about God, is that he is more sovereign than bad theology. When God turned my life around I didn’t know which way was right teaching, but all I knew was to seek God like crazy. In my honest pursuit of God by constant submission to Him, devotion to His word, and repentance, God has been gracious to place solid godly people in my life and in my school. Thanks again for posting this brother!

  • Anonymous

    Hmmmmm. Interesting. I have to admit that I do not listen to Joel Osteen. I do like Joyce. My thoughts on prosperity preaching? Baby stuff. However, sometimes baby stuff is just what I need at the moment. Then comes the opportunity to grow……I wonder who preaches peanut butter and jelly sandwiches:)

  • Eva

    i don’t know much about joyce meyer, but i did listen to the clip of her saying she wasn’t a sinner. that’s true as believers. the new testament does not call believers sinners. it calls us saints. paul always addresses us as saints, even the really nasty churches. so the caricature of her with a halo over her head was technically right on. that doesn’t mean she doesn’t still sin (and she knows that). it means that believers have jesus’ righteousness. dude. just read romans. it’s all there.

  • Paul

    Wow! What a debate! Over whether we should call out our fellow believers over their presentation of the Gospel and the doctrines of God’s Word. What ever happened to “judge righteous judgment”? Not my opinion, but God’s Word! His Word is the standard for all measurement, even for those preachers/teachers who have “helped me” in the past or are my “favorites.” They too can go astray!
    We live and work in China. There is an underground “Christian” movement called Eastern Lightning there that is claiming millions of followers. They are sucking away converts from Bible preaching churches, partly because no one wants to say anything or name them as false teachers. The leader is a woman who says that she is Jesus Christ returned for the 2nd time. Obvious false doctrine! But no one will say it. Don’t judge!! Nonsense, folks. In these dangerous times, we MUST judge by God’s Word.
    Enough said. The eternal destiny of the next generation demands that we “call out” those who preach His Word and hold them to a higher standard.
    A pastor.

  • Sully

    “In the essentials we must have unity. In the non-essentials we must allow liberty and in all things we must show charity” This quote is attributed to St. Augustine. The truth of the matter is today we see the church debating the essentials, dividing over non-essentials and not showing much charity or love about anything. There are two things that the church must have today and forever: Correct doctrine and love for one another. If you look at what Jesus said through John in Revelation to the seven churches you will see this. The church at Ephesus has sound doctrine but no love and they were condemned. The church at Thyatira loved one another but allowed false doctrine to be preached. They were also condemned. We must have both present and in proper proportions. It is just like salt. As humans we need salt. It is necessary. The interesting thing is this…salt is made up of sodium and chloride. Taken individually they are poisonous and will kill. When they are mixed together chemically they form salt. In the same sense, the church that has doctrine without love or love without doctrine will be unhealthy and will lead to death.

    This article was not written hatefully. There was respect given even through disagreement…..love one another enough to speak the truth even if it hurts. There was plenty of documentation to back up what was said. He is a shepherd called to pastor a flock and he is doing his job of protecting his sheep. If you disagree with what he says, then look up the documentation and check out what he is saying. If he is wrong then call him on it, with an attitude of love. If he is correct then thank him. Some battles are worth fighting and this one, the preservation of the true gospel, is certainly one of them. Ask yourself the question….if a false gospel is presented and believed…..are those that believe it genuinely saved? Remember the truth can and does both divide and unify. Will you stand up for truth in unity with your brothers and sisters in Christ or will you seperate from the Body of Christ because the truth is uncomfortable.

  • Travis

    I don’t agree with everything Joyce or Joel have to say but they do have a lot of good to say so I would never discount them completly. I take all of what I am taught by all in church and christian leadership with a grain of salt and with the word of God as a guide. I know far too many leaders in legitimate church organisations who go wrong from time to time but usually come back sooner or later. I only have a slight respect for the modern CRI of which Mr Hanegraaf is leader as I have seen them attack and atempt to destroy several good Churches and organisations as well as some very good men who they actually never met or spoke too or even heard speak in person just taking disgruntled members at their word so take all things at a distance and use the word of God and prayer to guide you not just take the Leadership of organisations or churches to say what the bible says. That is the problem with too many christians in this world today especially in north america.

  • Jimmy

    So… because I cannot sing, I can make a video saying Elvis was not a true singer. And maybe like minded groupies will agree and follow me. I can get attention by being the anti-Elvis… not by whether I can sing.

    Piper has every right to make his assertion. If his followers find their way to Christ, then that is good for them. Same with the followers of Osteen and Meyer. I just can’t imagine any leader of faith saying to another, “I am more Christian than you are”. If Piper wants to attack, why not attack non-Christians like the Jews or Muslims. He has no courage. It is easy and safe to attack a Christian.

    I believe this man is spooky. And I mean James Jones spooky. He counters the prosperity gospel, with his poverty gospel. Because this man has not been able to manage his finances he believes that no one else can either. Because he has not been able to inspire others outside his cult, his anger and jealously motivate him to speak about keeping people down. His message is simple… if you have not… cast resentment to those that have. If anyone thinks our Heavenly Father wants all of us to be the same… to have the same… they are just goofy. Each of us were blessed with different talents and skills. Those different talents result in different levels of success… no matter how you measure it.

    Peace y’all. It is a great day to be alive.

  • Gail

    I think our bottom line problem is a lack of interest in personal study of God’s Word.

    When we quit studying the Word on our own, we are at the mercy of popular teachers, some good and some bad.

    Thanks for this article and the various links.

    And thanks for being fair enough to include Olsteen’s apology. I think we need to be especially careful not to take things out of context or present partial truths when talking about people with whom we disagree.

  • Tammy Miller-Banfield

    The thing of it is these two preachers are human and as such we have been taught in the scriptures to listen to their teachings and then read the scriptures to prove what they say right or wrong and obey the scripture not the speaker. This is true of anyone up on the pulpit or sharing God’s Word.

  • E.A.

    I appreciate & respect with what you had to say, sir.

    However, where is your response? If you stated what Joyce & Joel are incorrectly teaching, where is your evidence that it is not true?

    All I read about was how you disagree with certain things that they teach. Which is fine. But where is your evidence to disprove them?

    I agree that giving just to get is wrong. There may be no humbleness in that. I have a book by Joel & Joyce. I’ve never given any more money to them other than the purchase of those books. And yes Joel has a cooky side to them. But they are no more different than any other preacher asking for money. Any preacher asking for money & having any size home is more rich than those in third-world countries.

    Mother Teresa asked for money but it wasn’t for her. It was for her orphanages.

    Finally, I think we need to be careful, as a church, that disagreements turn into hate which lead to an unholy division.

  • Anita

    Mr. Henderson: Thank you for the time and careful attention you took to present this information. I have spent a great deal of time reading through the article, watching the video links, and scanning through the many comments. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at how far afield the opinions get from the original intent of the article – everything from judging others to what is sin, debates on other religions, quotes from Scripture, opinions about God, the Bible, and life in general – wow! It strikes me that what is most important is your willingness to expose yourself to a lot of grief from a lot of people because you were convinced it was important to warn people – the Church specifically – about false teachers and their distortion of the Word of God. We as Believers are being conditioned to be afraid of speaking the truth, choosing rather to align our beliefs with what is “nice” or “acceptable” or “unoffensive” to others. It’s the world view of being “politically correct.” As the End Times come into sharp focus, it will be more and more difficult to remain steadfast under the criticism, attacks, and persecution directed at those who will not compromise the Gospel. I commend you for your desire to do what the Word of God requires, rather than tickle people’s ears with warm fuzzy fluff. Please know that there is a group of ladies who love the Lord and pray for spiritual warriors like you in America and around the world. We pray for your encouragement, your strength and stamina, and wisdom. Continue to stand strong in your daily walk with God, speak the truth with firmness (and love), and, whatever you do in word or deed, do all for the glory of God (Col. 3:17). Again, thank you, and may God bless you.

  • John A. Nyavor

    All of us as men of God must be careful how we go about everything we do or tell others. I always cry when I see fellow men of God requesting for money but I also sit down to observe the expenses they make to hold just a service. I am sure it is good to do all our best to invest into the members and not always taking from them. We need to be like Christ. He owed no one but rather satisfied all.
    I told everyone that God has not called me to establish many churches to make take gifts from the members but he sent me to establish Homes for orphans and Street kids in order to give them gifts instead.
    I will plead with everyone not to judge these men yet but let see what they use what they get to do… Are they satisfying their personal interest or working on the members to be free as people who know the truth and hence will live a life of freedom?
    Thanks and sending love to all children of God.
    http://www.facebook.com/GMI96

  • Anonymous

    Great article Brother and I couldn’t agree more- both are heretics!!

  • mary

    I love to listen to Joel & Joyce. I don’t agree with my preacher all the time either because everyone has their own view points on certain things. I also think that if people are listening to either of them it’s better than not listening to no one. We should all come to our own conclusion on certain topics. In the end we all have to be judged by one not by the many here on earth.

  • Anonymous

    Love your article. False teachers should be called out and held accountable for their teachings. A word of caution though. “I’m educated and well read. I’ve haven’t just read the Bible, I’ve translated large chunks of it from the original Hebrew and Greek. I think I understand it. I think I have a relatively significant level of discernment. But for a moment, I was emotionally vulnerable to this false doctrine.” This section does not fit well with the rest of the article. One thing I can say with confidence is that you do not understand the Bible. The religious leaders of Jesus’ day “understood” Scripture and used it to justify the murder of the Son of God. Even people like C. S. Lewis and John Piper were or will be corrected on many aspects of doctrine upon entering Heaven. While I realize that it is necessary to show that you are qualified to discuss these topics, it might be better to do so out of humility, instead of pride, giving the credit to God, and not taking it for yourself. Other than that though, great post. Valid points and always necessary to expose those who profane the name of God.

  • Sandy

    While I agree with your analysis, did you try to reach out/ talk to Joyce or Joel first? A European told me once, while he didn’t agree with Joel’s prosperity gospel, what people were hearing when they turned on tv/ radio was closer to the actual gospel than what they were hearing on other programs. It gives us a big responsibility as missionaries to reach the lost with the true gospel. And pray those who have a seed planted will turn to the Bible and Jesus and find out the truth for themselves, instead of going on their way without him or trusting a leader blindly without seeking Jesus themselves.

    Matthew 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.”

    Galatians 6:1 “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.”

    Colossians 3:13 “Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”

  • Rev. Robert Barnes

    Thanks, Rick. You don’t know me, I don’t know you. But as a minister of the gospel, we are called to protect the sheep. There are times when we must name and identify the wolves who are eating the sheep. We see this dozens of times in Scripture.