Church Is Messy?

I don’t know what flashes through your mind when you read, church is messy.  My guess is that for many your reply may be a tad sarcastic or even dismissive, something akin to:

“Yeah. Church and any venture that tries to lead people is messy.  Tell me something I don’t know.” 

That is very true.  But I’m talking about messy in a different way.

The thought that Church Is Messy (and that’s a good thing) is birthed from an obscure verse in Proverbs that gripped me a couple of years ago.

Without oxen a stable stays clean, but you need a strong ox for a large harvest.”  Proverbs 14:4 (NLT)

That simple verse has fundamentally altered and invigorated how I view my responsibility as a leader of Christians and as a follower of Jesus Christ.  It’s all about the harvest.  For the wise it doesn’t seem to be enough to have a harvest.  The wise are invested in a large harvest.  Many ache for, dream of and pray for a large harvest.  Having a harvest of any size assumes a great deal of hard work and long hours.  But having a large harvest requires adopting something that can exponentially amplify the hours and energy invested.

Having a large harvest means I’m going to have to shovel a lot of…eer…Well, you know what I mean.

I love the simplicity and the imagery of this verse.  I can imagine a farmer, up before the sun, walking into his once clean stable, greeted by the warm stench of dung.  As he reaches for the shovel, he reminds himself,

If I do this, the ox will do what I can’t.  If I provide for it, the ox will produce for me.

So the work  continues.  The next harvest produces more than the last.  With greater revenue he eventually buys more land, more oxen and hires more hands.  Soon he is no longer shoveling dung.  That task falls to young, eager farmers who now work for him, hoping to learn from him.

The time and energy that we have to invest will always be limited; what is produced doesn’t have to be.  Having an ox isn’t about working more.  It’s about making an investment in something or someone who will make more of what you value most, bringing more people into the kingdom.

I love this verse because it challenges my lean toward comfort and familiarity.  I love this verse because it pushes me to ask the question,

“Where can I invest to increase my harvest?”

The answer to that question is almost always going to be people.  I love opportunities to invest in emerging leaders and interns.  Doing so always means more work, especially in the beginning.  It can be great fun, certainly more fun than shoveling ox fodder.  Still, it is more hours, more work, more lost energy.  So why do it?  Because it exponentially increases influence and that always means a larger harvest.  I’ve found few joys in ministry that are sweeter than watching the purposes of God unleashed through one of those emerging leaders, as he or she leads others to trust and  follow Jesus Christ.

I don’t know what the ox is for you.  For me it has meant honest and sometimes excruciating evaluation of ministry programs.  It has meant saying goodbye to much-loved ministry activity that didn’t produce a harvest.  It has meant retooling or restructuring to invest in the influence of others.  It has meant bringing in the perspective and opinions of others into the message crafting process (if you are not currently doing that, it is messy and it is good).  It has meant not only financially backing those who care for orphans, but adopting an orphan myself.  My wife and I have been surprised by the world of influence and relationships that this act has opened to us.  In short, having an ox has meant leaning into messy activities that lead to larger harvests.

These new and messy activities often feel awkward and are counter-intuitive.   That is alright.  What is never alright is being satisfied with a smaller harvest because you are not comfortable with the mess.

Any hope of a harvest at all rests on the messiest event in human history.  There was nothing neat and tidy about the cross.  It was a brutal and messy affair.   Because of the mess of the cross, we now have the message of reconciliation.

Whatever the ox is for you, there is a good chance that it means making a mess out of some neat and tidy things in your life and in your church.  And that mess is a good thing.

76 thoughts on “Church Is Messy?

  1. I am grateful to you for your stand against these false teachers,when I make remarks to the them My fellow ministers in my denomination seem to put in a judging category.I have made statements against such as Rick Warren , Kenneth Copeland and even Joyce Meyers, and I am blacklisted.
    I cannot stand idle and watch this trash go on..Thank you so much.
    I have been a pastor 50 yrs.
    Charles D Underwood

    1. Mr Charles Undefrwood, Could you please define love to me according to the scriptures. Could you please explain to me each aspect of the fruits of spirit? How do we show these gifts to this hopeless world? Could you please expound on these because right now I am totally confused. Please send me an email.Mr. Undefrwood. Just answer my questions please.

  2. Rick, if you expect an avalanche of amen’s to this, then I have beachfront property in Kansas for you to buy. “I want you to prosper as you soul prospers” is a quote that has been used more than a lazy mule is beaten. We love prosperity and our adoration of movie stars proves it. These “pastors” are Christian movie stars, and have more fans (100 million dollars a year, good grief). God is permitting these deceivers to go on preaching and a gullible public to drink it in. “An angel whispering in my ear”, where does she get this nonsense from? and angels don’t preach, they minster to God’s elect. Hebrews 1.14. “He was not the Son of God, but sin”? The quote she is alluding to is “He was made to be sin for us”, II Cor. 5:21 means that He was made the “scapegoat” of sin, yet He remained the Son of God and in His perfection took on the sins of those who would be chosen…and so He died in our place and carried them away into the wilderness (Yom Kippur). He was also the sacrifice on the altar of sin, a Lamb with no blemish, dying a death in place of His chosen that would have condemned them to an eternal one. Why oh why can’t these “ministers” just preach Christ crucified?

  3. I would add amen. Just in the last few weeks I was researching again these false teachers. So many are quoting them and therefore following the teaching. I too went to The Bible Answer Man, awesome resource still! Love that the church you are at is in Utah, keep up the kingdom work.

  4. Was in this kind of teaching for a number of years in the 1980’s-1995. Praise the Lord, I am now in a Bible believing church that teaches what the Bible says about Jesus and the Christian life. I am growing spiritually. These teachers you blog about are just greedy, self centered, power hungry. I am glad you are standing up for the truth of the Gospel.

    1. You are wrong. i know some of these ministers personally. They are some of the most generous and giving people. Titus 3: 2-7 – ‘Speak evil of no man”

      1. I agree with you Kirstin. This type of articles and blogs are exactly why the Church and Christianity is seen as a joke by so many people. I have a hard time believing your goal is to add to the Kingdom. We can’t agree on so we divide to new denominations; we decide what someone else should do with their money; we speak evil of other Christians we don’t agree with all for a few ‘amens’ and a pat on the back. As a church goer my whole life and a born again, Bible believing Christian for 8 years I grow sick of the bickering.

      2. Thanks Kirstin, I started listening to Joel O and Joyce Meyer. I love their message. Christians should not judge other Christians. Rick Henderson said it’s all about Harvest. When Joyce Meyer makes an altar call sometimes there are hundreds who give their lives to Christ. That matters Rick…

    2. Standing up for the Gospel and pointing fingers are to different things. We have three pointing back at us. We are to preach the acceptable day of the Lord. Not be fault finder. If we know the truth the truth will set us free. Men are fallible God and His Word are not. Tell me what it says about Love in the Bible? and Expound on the fruits of the Spirit? I would love to hear your scoop on these to questions. Thanks Blessings for a beautiful day to you.

      1. If Christians aren’t supposed to judge other Christians, that we should leave all judging up to God like more and more ministers are teaching today, then what does Paul’s exhortation to judge and disciple below mean?

        ‘Now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (1 Cor. 5:11-13)

  5. I believe that your views of Joyce Meyer are ridiculous . She reaches millions for Jesus and people’s lives are changed. You have taken a few things she has said and twisted it to be what you want. I do believe that by faith we can speak to our circumstances to change. The Bible says there is the power of life and death in the tounge. Maybe you should teach what God gives you to teach and not point out what you consider others faults . I think you all are on the same team if you are pointing people to Jesus. So it really a sad to me to hear your comments about others.

    1. Envy much is the question I would ask of him! Amen. Lets spread the Good word and stop beating others down!

  6. That verse is so true, I’ve said that for years, it had helped me through a lot of hurts and hard times at the hands of church leadership. I blogged about it recently, though inn having a harder time getting through lately. But it I is encouraging to see someone else interpret the verse the same way. Thank you.

  7. There are about 83 mentions of the church in the new Testament. There are 38 mentions in the plural ( churches) and the plural does not mean the many organizations headed by false teachers. The scripture does not mention nor mean that the church is messy. In fact, I find that offensive.
    The scripture says the church is the “body of Christ”. It says Christ is the head of the church. It says it is the bride of Christ. The church that Peter spoke of in the second chapter of Acts was Christ centered, Christ owned and Christ kingdom. There is nothing messy about the true Church of Christ. It is perfect in it’s design, perfect in it’s purpose and faithfully taught by the few that has found the narrow way and will be saved. If ” few ” offends that’s the term used in the scripture. It grieves me that the likes of Osteen, Meyers, and many others are leading astray the sincere people who show up at church assembly and soak up the false teaching instead of searching the scripture to show themselves approved before God. I suggest that perhaps it’s time for Henderson and Warren to take a hard look as some of your teachings. If the scripture doesn’t say it then man shouldn’t say it.

  8. Hi Rick:

    Before I start, I was going to leave my post with the article/blog, but began to read some of the posts and decided this to be a better forum. It’s a shame what the outcome has been and I am sure not one you intended.

    First, thank you for this post (Osteen vs Meyer) – it was actually sent to me by a woman from my church who is currently discipling me and felt I would benefit from it. I have. As well, believe it or not from the posts I have read, granted I have not read the over 1,045!

    I am a newly rededicated Christian and have been a follower of Joyce and Joel (Joyce more than Joel) and until now had enjoyed their teaching (less the staging and self promotion) for it’s simplicity I guess and it’s lack of esotericism although I must say have been bothered by the constant solicitation to buy books and to give. I have had little background or context for each until now, which because of your post has inspired me to dig deeper, to try to be a little more informed not just for TV evangelists, but all those from whom we approve as teachers. The bible does ask us to “walk circumspectly” and to “test the spirit” so I would think this applies to all those who claim to be a follower of Jesus – for me as well. Although, I think we need to allow for people to make mistakes given that we all have fallen short and without grace we would all be without hope, I do agree that those that lead flocks should be and should expect to be held to a higher standard by man (since they will be by God). That said, thank you for sharing and ‘outing’ as you say people who claim to be of God, but are really about mammon (if that is in fact true in these cases. It seems on the surface to be). I really don’t want to guess, but the evidence you present to me has some compelling merit. I have internalized what you said about living our lives in such a way as to be approved by God and believe along with all that have commented that the scriptures are pretty diffinitive on what that looks like. I am learning as well, that from both old and new testaments God did not tread lightly when it came to false prophets and disobedience, so we should expect that He will find a way to intervene to protect His own. Maybe what this has served to do more for me is to emphasize the need for a deeper personal relationship with God, a better understanding of of His Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit and perhaps a complimentary, but lesser reliance on man, so that I can recognize when I am being led astray. I am learning and have a long long way to go. I especially liked and can say a big “Amen” to Joe Meeks comments above and have learned much from the subsequent comments from others related to this subject on this page.

    My point. I am curious only about one thing and I am hoping you will answer. What did you do prior to preaching this from the pulpit and writing this blog, what steps did you take about this matter as far as these individuals are concerned? Others have asked the same question, I now see, thought I was crazy for asking. Knowing this would be helpful to me, if you would like to reply to me personally that is fine. God bless.

  9. Thank you for your honest, accurate assessment of these individuals! Don’t be deterred by the negative backlash, instead, see it as a reinforcement that you are right. The Bible says they will hate you because they hated HIM. God bless you!

    1. I so agree with your Rachel! I hope Rick has a circle of solid Christians in his church who are surrounding him with encouragement. I’m sure this has brought unexpected, and unwanted, attention to him, his family and church.

  10. Joyce Meyer came up on another forum, and I chose to point out the serious flaws in her teachings. I chose to link the comments to a couple of Preachers, an Alan Cairnes “Free Presbyterian”, and Hank Hanagraaf, who most folks know about.
    The post was flagged by the moderator as too abusive and for the fact that Mr. Cairnes called her teachings ‘doctrines of demons’.
    How sad that you cannot even link to a message on some PC forum sites without getting silenced.
    I do believe that Mr, Cairnes has pointed out the jist of the matter.
    And just who does Joyce Meyer answer to?
    Who is she subject to by way of a Bishop or Board of Elders?

  11. I’m so with you! I had built a multi-million dollar company from scratch. While we enjoyed the prosperity my wife secretly prayed to God to take it all away! He did just that and for a Great Purpose! Everything was stripped away in less then 8 months. Down to not having even food for our family or a home for our family with five kids. However, he has provided each and everyday what we needed to survive. He also led us to the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter day Saints where we have met one of the Greatest Christians. While we were not able to convert due to our own beliefs he has remained by our side till this day! Bishop Erik Brewer of the Centennial Ward in Peoria AZ. After we hit bottom and turned to the many who pretended to be our friends and even family NOT ONE was there! We were left to our situation alone and even those whom I helped with countless blessings turned and walked away. I made millions for people and because I’m a Christian gave to anyone near me in need.

    I thank the Lord for taking it all! For giving me for the first time in my life clear vision of the true friends that he has put in our path since the wealth was taken. I now can go forward and rebuild to do God’s work! I am at the beginning of building an empire. One that will not only bring wealth and prosperity to myself and my family but to help those in true need. I am a rock that God has passed his kingdom to! I’m a sinner and deal with my short comings with repentance. However, I know God knows who I am and he knows my heart. Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyers are taking $100s of millions from the poor and I have vowed before God that I will topple their den of inequity! They will suffer now in this world as I take there wealth and power away to give it back to the poor and they will suffer God’s wrath in the hereafter! As God as my witness I will make this my mission for the remainder of my years! Praise be to God and to his people on earth!

    If you are in need and need help know that it is on it’s way. I will not turn you away if you have true needs and I will be hiring thousands and I will create great paying jobs to help you! James Duke (602)432-5785

  12. If you are struggling with money to survive day by day I can help you! I have a way for you to start earning money today even if you don’t have a penny. My help is free and I will never accept anything in return. I have been blessed by God and sent to help you!

  13. This is just trash. Rick, you DO NOT KNOW what you are talking about. So called pastors like yourself, are just troublemakers. Sad!!!!

  14. I love the reality and your thoughts paster, especially about prosperity preachers. My question: Is there a description of Jesus in the bible? Does you use or believe it? You have posted pictures of this “white Jesus” that are simply False and Untrue. Teach the truth ALL THE WAY AROUND Pastor, is your faith not in the African Messiah?

  15. I am a christian from the third world, so agree with you Rick, these false doctrines contaminated many true christian in my country and it’s going worse ( admitted I was one of the victims out of my innocence and the thought that you americans should’ve known better about the scripture), but now I’ve found The Place where Jesus really does exist with His miracles through His Body and Blood and the Power of the Anointing Oil revealed by the chosen martyr in my country, if you are a true christian and deeply in love with Jesus and earnestly seeking His Kingdom, you’ll now what I’m talking about.

  16. I would just like to bring to your attention that the Holy Spirit in me felt vexed at the phrase “Church is Messy.” Our God is orderly. The church that Jesus Christ is the head of is orderly. There should be nothing messy about it, or about making disciples. All of 1 Corinthians 14 speaks of keeping things orderly when a congregation meets. “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” (1 Corinthians 14:33)

    You said, “Because of the mess of the cross, we now have the message of reconciliation.” The work of the cross was perfect. I suppose that you’re referring to Jesus being physically brutalized, but it strikes me as disrespectful at the very least to refer to the work of the cross as a “mess.”

    The truth is that we are a mess if we do not have Christ. His Church – his Bride – is NOT messy, but “without spot or wrinkle.” He takes the “mess” away and then conforms our behavior to be more like His; right, good, peaceful, and anything but “messy.”

    I understand from your explanation that you are extrapolating from Proverbs 14:4. From my understanding, and correct me if I’m wrong, but “clean” properly translated means “empty,” and the verse is conveying that without oxen (workers) there will be emptiness (no harvest), but with workers people will hear the Word of God and be converted, thus there will be a harvest. You said, “Having a large harvest means I’m going to have to shovel a lot of…eer…Well, you know what I mean.” It is rather shocking to me that you are using “eer” (which I think we all know what you mean by the word) to mean “messy” to then say church is “eer.” Obviously, I don’t know your heart, but I ask you to prayerfully rethink this concept.

  17. Wow wow and wow again. I read through your site, and as someone who is a lifelong follower of Jesus Christ and an eternal student of the Word of God I am embarrassed for you. Your words show me a man who is writing so little in faith and yet taking a position so large in slander. Brother, let me are allowing yourself to be but the welcome mat of creating division in the body of Christ where everyone walks across the threshold you created here, wipes their dirty feet and then verbally blasts another human being that was created by God, chosen by God and preaches the Word of God… where in your site do I see even a small glimmer of representing what it is to lay down YOUR own life and love others as God has loved you? Does one pride themselves on using scripture to harm others as you create this mob of responders on here to feel justified in doing so, or does one honor and respect the scriptures to spread love and forgiveness and encourage others in their walk with Jesus? Get off the soapbox of pride you place yourself on thinking you have the right to write poorly of a fellow child of God and do something FRUITFUL. God knows the truth in every man’s heart, try to remember that. Oh how the Pharisees love the laws of man-made religion, yet the believers in Christ follow Him and Him alone. I am encouraging you to lay this aside, go deep into the heart of God through Jesus Christ and ask Him what it is that HE should have you do. I really do not believe this is what Christ would ask you to do. Rest assured, Jesus has something bigger and better for you and your family than this, this what you are doing here. I know you will find it, because He wants you to have all that He made for you. Jesus doesn’t want us to be busy with slander, to prove what is ‘not’. Our life as a Christian is to be and live in a way that reflects Christ and proves what ‘is’…. and His name IS Jesus Christ.

    1. I know you are angry at Rick about his righteous indignation to think that he can call out men and women of God but…. Jesus is our ultimate example. Are you not doing the same thing calling him out as he is doing? Yes Jesus wants us all to be one with unity in the body of believers [John 17:20-23] but I think what he is trying to say is that these people according to his definition are not in that body. Secondly, Jesus pretty much renounces the false teachers [religious leaders of His day] in all of Matthew 23. What would you say to Jesus? Just as many counterpoints as you could probably come up with for Rick to not do this, I could probably come with the same if not more that support this. So who is right? There is no right , that is why it is called an opinion. I am proud of Rick [right or wrong] that he will at least share his opinion boldly. We seem to revere preachers and pastors that just keep their mouth shut on incredibly important doctrines. American society has adopted the principle doctrine of tolerance, that acceptance has led to unbelievably concerning issues happening in our nation. You stated
      “preaches the Word of God.” I have watched Joel Olsteen a few times and can’t definitively say whether he does or not but we are readily able to believe that just because a man has a nice suit on, builds a large church, gets a degree in seminary that he is credible.
      I will end with this 2 Timothy 4: 2- 4 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

  18. Not sure where you are coming from. Pointing out the a person like Joel Osteen is collecting over $100m a year in the name of our Lord and using it ONLY to better his own situation needs to be done! There isn’t anywhere in his ministry a person in real need can go to get real help! Not one cent goes back to the needy but yet his Church buys him a $10m mansion to live in tax free and a $10m private jet to fly him and his around in and that is NOT right! Jesus would want someone to speak out against the inequity of evil men…..wolves in sheep clothing! Just his collection on the weekend is over $600k per weekend yet he can’t give $1 to a family in need???? He is using the word of God to line his own pockets and the pockets of those around him. I’m so happy that you believe that a TV evangelist and prosperity preacher needs protection….however, it’s the poor and needy families that need protection from people who take money in the name of God and give nothing back to the People of God who turn to him for help!!! Obviously you have not done any investigating into this matter! I challenge you to go to find anywhere in his ministry that a person who has real needs can go for a little help. All you will get is “We would be honored to stand with you in prayer in this matter”. I also challenge you to find one person that has received some real help in their times of need from the Joel Osteen ministry!!!! Don’t respond back if you can’t find one place to go for help or one person who they have helped. Outside of the $30 a month they spend to sponsor a child overseas!!! Good Luck and God Bless!!!

  19. Which reminds of our reading today at church. Acts 5:38-39. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.

    May the Holy Spirit, will guide and give us all wisdom. God is great and God bless.

  20. This is just awful to see so many so called christians bashing other christians. Theses preachers have helped lead millions to Jesus and thats what its all about. Why do you care how they do it or how much money they make while they do it. I think Joyce is very down to earth just like Jesus was.. If you dont like their style then dont listen to them but you shouldnt be gossiping and showing the world we are no different than them.

  21. Dear Rick Henderson,

    I am a very troubled christian. I know this is off topic of most of the things you discussed, but I need to say something to someone, anyone. I suffer from severe clinical depression, and chronic generalized anxiety disorder. My husband suffers from acute pancreatitis. My Grandmother passed away a month ago. I pray almost everyday about these things. I saw a few of Joel’s television surmons. One in particular stood out to me. He described it as the 7th year drought. He basically said if you’re sick, if you’re ill, depressed, things are going wrong in your life, thank god for the rain that’s about to pour down. Thank god for your 7th year. And some say praying can be dangerous. I.E. be careful what you wish for, don’t pray too much it shows lack of faith, if you pray for patience god will present you with a situation to where you have to exercise your patience. This leads people to believe that God is some form of “Cruel Genie in a bottle”, i.e. pray for rain and it floods. Anyway, the point is, I could really really really use some help. I have a terrible fear of death, losing my grandmother was tragic for me. I fear for my husband’s life. I’d go to a church in my home town but i don’t trust most pastors. As you point out, some are very false. And who is to know what pastor is correct in what he preaches? This is one christian reaching out to another. Please…. help me. I am doing my best with my faith. I know God is there, I am praying, but I am suffering. I don’t want a rich house or car or whatever. I want a rich family life. Rich relationships filled with joy. I don’t have this right now. I really really need some advice. Anything at all would help. My e-mail is: I need knowledge. I would have e-mailed this, but I could not find an e-mail for you.


  22. It’s good to see someone standup to those Hustle & Flow preachers. We call it a congregational Shake Down. When I was a engineering student at a small college (NKU) northern kentucky university in the early 80s a student bar named Gerstles Irish pub, would turn on all tvs to the hustle preachers….tammie Faye baker,and jim… Robert tilton…..the biker copeland & co., swaggert, and God knows who else. Can’t remember all of them ! So Many ! Any when they up in wheel chairs,crutches,canes,braces….when they recieved the preachers anointed touch and they hit floor cured, we would all fall off the Bar Stools and hit the floor swearing we just got Sober ! They were great entertainment and fun to watch….that was in punk rocks heyday…only entertainment we liked better was watching Wendy O.Williams (WOW) and her band the plasmatics ! We really did this ! But seriously speaking for hurt,searching souls, dealing with pain and other issues….those hustlers promise relief only if you send them money because they are Gods Sunday special anointed . What this really is Spirital RAPE. And Texas has always been a hot bed for it. I have seen these hurting people walk away bitter an in worse shape than before getting involved. These names I would Love to see investigated…..Last days ministies…..Bill Gothard ministies…..the vineyard (movement)….and watchman lee & witness née . In this order with the fist being last days. They are dangerous….some kind of mind control . I’ve read some of your web pages and agree 100 percent. Visit Gerstles and learn how to fall off a bar stool gracefully with a Boom ! Just joking.

  23. Other things people need to be reminded of. Jesus did not hang out with the rich rabbis. He hung out with drunks, criminals, murders, prostitutes, thieves, liars, and the entire buffet of Sinners. The Real Salt of the Earth. It’s who he came for, not the self righteous , not rich pastors who have nothing to show except their own wealth, a stadium sized church or one that’s total glass ! Read Jesus opinion on Sadducees and Pharisees and the wealth they wore. Today it would be wearing a $10,000 Armani in the pulpit., did you hear that Joel-o !!! Read about who the Apostle Paul is ! All that education, all that Power, all that wealth & money, and Family. Given up & walk away and preach Jesus, the gospel, establish churches, travel constantly ( no cars, buses, planes,). Paul / Saul covered a lot of ground., he also worked in hard labor, also a tent maker, he refused to eat unless he earned it from working. Tell this to the welfare folks ! And most of all He Was Entrusted to develope -reason, establish maintain- Enforce-debate DOCTRINE ! All by FAITH. Is there any more Paul’s OUT THERE !

  24. This is to Rick, the author of this website. I see there are so many
    different opinions posted here with many
    having scripture to back them up. It seems there is an opinion
    on every side. However true christians are discerning with the
    Lords help and want to know the truth. We also want others to
    know the truth. To Rick; would it be possible to sit out for two or
    three days with nothing but the Word and a notebook and seek
    the Lord concerning this issue of false teaching. if we don’t set aside
    time to be alone with God (I too have been guilty of that) then our
    minds can become confused and overloaded. In faith, after that time
    has passed believe that whatever you feel impressed is your
    answer to prayer. Maybe He will tell you to show mercy and grace to
    these pastors and preachers. Maybe He will tell you to expose them.
    But once and for all you will know beyond a shadow of a doubt what
    the will of the Lord is. I too have struggled with how to show mercy
    and understanding without compromising the word of God.
    The Lord says to “seek and you shall find”. I believe that if we seek
    the Lord with all of our hearts we will find and know His will. (I am
    also preaching to myself). God bless you for wanting to know and
    teach truth; it must always be spoken in love. I do not discern anything
    in Joyce Meyer except where personality is concerned. Maybe I
    did not hear the sermons in question. I do wonder why Joel Osteen
    refuses to state publicly, even when he has a worldwide platform, that
    Jesus is the ONLY way and what we believe concerning this DOES
    matter. I think sometimes he is in a popularity contest; am I wrong?
    Still, I have benefited from most of his sermons as many are a word
    in due season when I needed to hear them. But as I am already
    saved and know the Word I am not directly affected by his refusal to
    preach the gospel; I am concerned about the ones that are not
    yet saved and yet somehow have a false security about their beliefs
    because the ones called to preach the gospel are taking the “easy
    way” out because they don’t want to “offend” anyone.

  25. The church really is a MESS ! The tv preachers is nothing but a money game and nothing more, I have known this for over 34 years. And never in my life have they gotten a penny from me…and never will. But you must also examine religious charities….like the Salvation Army …they formerly traded stock on the NYSE as Acme Salvage. For every one dollar donated .35 cents goes to national office in NYC….and .10 cents goes to international office in London. They are another very wealthy religious RACKET. They are a Conglomerate. They are not the only ones. I just read Debbie Boone’s husband Gabriel has been performing GAY Marriages for a long time. Daddy Boone toupe probably ran for cover ! I challenge you to study religious- church charities especially those for the homeless it’s a huge Racket on supporters & taxpayers. With the money donated, raised, fed & state funding in the last 40 yrs alone could have solved it,….Good Luck !

  26. “We all have our different walks, trials and tribulations with the Lord. As long as we all stay on the same track with Him, we will all get to the glory of God. Amen.”
    -Joshua Naimi

  27. I don’t know about all that. I found this site because of my disgust for TV evangelist who milked poor people out of what little they have selling the gospel while living in $10m mansions and living a life of excess. I never even cared till in 2012 with a wife and four kids I lost everything I had worked my entire life for and for the first time needed help. First place I looked was the church of my family. Raised Catholic and from a family who has given large amounts of money to the Jesuits I thought for certain that there were programs within the church to help. I was quickly turned out and referred to other programs mostly govt. and St. Vincent DePaul. We were members of a parish, attending and gave to that parish but as soon as we needed help they brought out the map and pointed out that we were “not in their parish” and sent to a church we had never attended. St. Vincent came to the cheap motel five of us called home. $145 for a year and some food! They paid for a couple nights and said “Good luck…God Bless!”. WOW! Frankly if it were not for Great Christians in the LDS we would have been on the streets. I can’t say enough about them and their Christian values! They saved us and we are well on the way to rebuilding. I sought out Joel Olsteen’s ministry for some where to get some help. Found they don’t give back! Go and see as if you were in trouble and need help, look everywhere in their ministry for a place where the $100m they take in a year gets helps anyone? It’s a one way street with them! Money goes in but it doesn’t come out!

    1. Look brother I’m was just trying spread some Good News as they used to called it in church in my day. Not so much anymore. Im for real man. I don’t go to church but I do my daily devotionals everyday. Like I said. Everyone’s walk with the Holy Spirit is different ways brother.

      Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

      1. Hey Bill,
        When the people escorted the whore into town in front of the Pharisees. They were about to stone her to death. Jesus said ” Let the person with no sin throw the first stone. ” Everyone dropped there stone. Jesus went to her and said “Get up my child and sin no more.” And from that point on she lived for Him and Him alone. Even though more persecution.

    2. The Catholic Church is the great whore. They are a governmental – church state with its own rulers and embassies world wide…Yes Embassies and Banks & Banking – Investment subsidies. Did you know Abe Lincoln refused to allow them to establish a Embassy in the USA. Abe was a anti-catholic. That’s why the assination therories. No where does any Bible mention a pope or Mary’s god like divinity. Last know verse about Mary the Lords mom was… While Jesus was teaching, the Apostile John said Lord behold thy mother…and Jesus replied Who Is My Mother ???the next verse states that John & his wife took mary in and gave her a home….last know appearance of Jesus’s mother in the book of John…Do Your Research. So much for a idol with statues in the front yard. My oldest Bro-Inlaw is a MD. My sister like the faithful has those statues everywhere …I used to make them disappear…for a Joke. My Inlaw gives them everything, free medical , hospitalization, etc…except they must be nun, priests, bishops…clergy. Also administrators. The our Gang mentality…just like some of my Jewish friends. As Paul said…study the scripture and show thy self approved. In other words Can’t Fool You. Also Read Very Throughly…The Catholic Coronicales by Keith Green. It’s on the net. No writings ever caused more Catholics to leave the so called church in the last 35 years except for a British Dr. & Pastor named Ravenhill….the pope, Vatican, it’s scholars , and the entire catholic system really-really Hates this guy….they never Won a theological debate a against him !

    3. LDS Mormons are not and never were Christians. They believe they will become gods, denying Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

  28. I hate to say it but what you guys are feeling or saying stuff against Osteen and Joyce Meyers is vengeance. And I know all about vengeance. We have to remember we are all born into sin as well. But we are covered in the blood of Christ. im not saying they are not wrong about their ministries. But vengeance is His said the Lord. Amen

    1. “My Heavenly fatherly, Lord Jesus please have mercy on my soul as I am about to say this. ” The Bible is a huge study guide for us born again Christians to live by. But we all fall short of the glory of God. But that is why Jesus Christ, the Son of God, shed his blood for our sins. I mean his last words on the cross were “My Heavenly Fatherly please have mercy on them for they no Not what they are Doing! What kinda merciful God does that. Our God does that!!!!
      Please pray this prayer before you go to sleep at night. I say this prayer all the time every day.
      “Our Father, who is in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread but forgive us our trespasses as we for those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil for thy is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever.” Amen.

      I’m sorry where are my manners. Hey I’m Josh. I’m a sinner. But I’m covered in the blood of Christ Jesus our Lord and Savor.
      I’m also a 12 year Marine Corps combat veteran. I’m just a hard charging Marine Sgt that sees my church under spiritual and physical attack. Please let me know what you think.

      1. “Our Father, who is in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread but forgive us our trespasses as we for those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil for thy is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever.” Amen.

        “Greater is He that lives in our hearts and souls, then he that is in the world. For everyone will knee down at His name. For He is the the Alpha and Omega, The Begin and The End, The Morning Star. Wake up Church!

        The reason why the Church is so crappie is Christians don’t have the full armor of God on.

  29. Hey Rick,
    If you know that the other big ministries are just out for capitalism, why is God’s church in turmoil? It is the lack of no armor of God on Christians today. God tells you to put it on everyday. And great Christians will put it on faithfully everyday. But we live in sin as well. Our armor gets worn down but we are strong in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Remember to put the armor on everyday

    The Hemet of Salvation
    The Breast plate of Righteousness
    The Sword of the Spirit (Bible)

    “Our Father, who is in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread but forgive us our trespasses as we for those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil for thy is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever.” Amen.

  30. Amen Josh ! But for the rest her life man never forgave her, only The Lord. This web site Messy Church is and should be for standing up and correcting, admonishing , confronting, other Christians who are in ERR of the Word. This is stated throughout the New Testament. Paul had to correct Peter. Entire churches had to be corrected. This site is only informing and warning other Christians of wolves in sheep’s clothing not throwing a brick ! I haven’t read anywhere urging us to kill the blasphemer or false teachers . I only know this…God will eventually deal with them in his own Good Time. Not ours. As God dealt with the Bakers, Swaggert’s. Tilton’s, Etc….Their credibility completely Destroyed and Humiliated beyond , Empires lost. And then comes the unsaved….their cruelty is endless. The IRS, The Lawsuit’s, courts, lawyers, The Press and on & on I can go. Stripped of their Humanity & Soul torn asunder. Big risk Huh !!! Their children Destroyed….very very ugly affair. Always remember the unsaved & non-believer is always watching. They love a Christians Folly and mistakes and the ones so deep into a sinful life that even they marvel at it. Christians are fair game, sport, open season. So be careful….. Josh , May God Bless and watch over you in the name of our Lord Jesus.

    1. That’s it, your giving up on God and His Church. We have been living in the Book of Revolutions for centuries. I mean war, famine, storms, anarchy. It’s said it in in the book of Revolution. If people could actually read and understand the correct meaning of it all. But the world puts it’s twist on the truth and poisons it.

      Hey the only reason I even posted any comments on this site is a long time ago I was and still am a very devoted Christian. I can’t even tell you how many times I have back slidden. I don’t even know if that is a word any more. I know that I covered by the blood of the Lamb and anyone that shall believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. But our Church is going to…?

    2. Hey Bill, you should all listen to the New York pastor do his sermon on this on YouTube. It is called “run for your life”. pastor Rick has recognize a dangerous trap set by the enemy. This trap leads you gently away from The Christ and then if you die, you are now lost. I go to Osteen’s website and pray online for and with them and try to correct this strange thinking. If you just read the four gospels you can see yourself what the problem is. You MUST suffer. This is how we become Christ-like. But I’m glad nobody is sawing my head off! Thank You Lord!! Amen.

  31. I apologize if I offended you. I have gave up on nothing. May Gods Will be Done. And I Have Also Backslided So Many times I can’t count them all. Iam not proud of any of those times ….there has never been a perfect Christian except One. Jesus. Most of the time the unbeliever & unsaved judge all Christians for the actions of the tv pay for pray preachers. I’ve been on the blunt end of that one when d.koresh in Waco,tx. Had his GiG with the Feds, people at where I work would joke…..give them all the guns they want ( Christians ) but Do Not Give Them Electric Guitars….boy when they those guitars ….they get crazy !!! This kind of joking I put up with….and if I knew Tammy Faye Baker or Swaggert. Of course co-workers did this in humorous sport. Why I was judged as being the same or in the same mold so were others I knew. So I know what Iam talking about here. Now this may offend you…Gods got his own time table ! Not even Jesus knows his own 2nd coming date….only the father, this is written and Jesus said it. There is nothing I or you can do to change it. But think of the positive side…. Think of all these years and centuries that has passed…If that isn’t Love for us….I don’t know what is. With this long long long long time frame this is Mercy, the Mercy to turn to Jesus to give time for Chance are Chance and chance again an again God never QUITS ! This Is LOVE and MERCY. So….as you said revelations has been going for centuries…..a friend of mine & his wife think the rapture is going to be such a slow happening that no one will realize all the Christians are ?????? As scripture says In the Twinkling of The Eye. In Gods eye it could mean a 100 years instead of a day. Interesting theory BUT still a theory. A good book to read is Paul : the Apostile of the heart set free.

  32. Its just that the Church itself these days is so much bull crap and not the true meaning of the Word. Hey I’m no preacher or pastor by any means. I’m just Marine Sergeant trying to lead other Christians into battle against the enemy the proper way. I am seeing God’s Church going to poo poo. And I see the country I served honorably for 12 years go to shit as well. Its really going to shit every time I bear to look at the news. Our countries is so much extreme turmoil it’s doesn’t know where to turn. Our countries is so much turmoil because of sin. Straight up sin. And I’m guilty too. Let it be known that Christians are not perfect by any means. We fuck up all the time. Lord knows I have, thank you Jesus. But we are also covered by the blood of the Lamb. If you truly repent of your sins every day. And I repent every day because I know I fall short of His glory. We all fall short of his Glory.
    I put my freaking armor of God on everyday and fight the Great fight. And get this…my wife’s not even a believer yet..she doesn’t really believe in anything. .welcome to my world. .I’m a Christian on my own literally. .It’s all about FAITH gentleman!

  33. Where is your FAITH gentleman! In God or man? I don’t know bout you gentleman but God’s been in my life since the beginning. But I got saved when I was 6 years old. And first baptised when i was 9. I am 34 now and I have learned throughout the years you need to put on the armor of God every day in this evil world. In order to do this you have to have a personal relationship with God. All Christians or non-believers should say this prayer. For its the Lord’s prayer. God doesn’t discriminate against being humble or asking for forgiveness, or patience. But He gives us Love, Power, and a Soud Mind to his people through prayer. Please say this prayer before you start your day and end your day. It’s working for me. Also say in when your body armor comes off or lose. Because in the end it’s all its all out out making done on earth as it is in heaven!

    “Our Father, who is in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread but forgive us our trespasses as we for those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil for thy is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever.” Amen.

  34. Joyce Meyer has helped me find god. And i have never felt from her teachings that I have to be rich or dress nicely to be accepted by God. And frankly I have never heard her say it either, and Ive listened to her for a long time. Now I’m a fairly new follower. But im taking it very seriously. And when I hear preacher against preacher, it makes me think who am I suppose to listen to? If everything she had said and Ive learned from her is false, The my feeling Ive grown toward god are false too? When I hear bashing like this it makes me question what im even suppose to believe and from who. Does it make me bad If I like Joyce? If I died now would I go to Hell because I follow Joyce? This has just confused me so much.

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  36. Hi Pastor Rick, you are spot on. Those folks should run for their lives! If they die before they re-accept Christ and confess they will be dead for eternity. The Holy Spirit put it on my heart to help these brethren. I go on their prayer site and try to blunt the teaching by prayers and preaching. But your are right, they now think God is a Devine vending machine. I said that once there and they freaked out. I apologized and continue to plant mustard seeds in their midst. Hehehe. I pray the Lord Jesus blesses you richly, in Christ name, Amen.

  37. “For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (1 Cor. 5:12-13)

    More and more are boldly declaring Christians aren’t supposed to judge. If we cant righteously judge the doctrines of demons and rotten fruit being sown by false teachers deceptively coming in Christ’s name (Mat. 24:4-5), what is going to happen in these last days? That’s right, the greatest falling away of believers in the history of the church. (2 Thes. 2:3, 1 Tim. 4:1, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, 2 Pet. 2:1)

  38. Joyce Meyer teaches the heresy Jesus paid for the sins of believers by suffering in Hell fire for three days.

    “There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell” Joyce Meyer (The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make)

    Saints, our Jesus did not have to die spiritually to bring redemption for those believing in Him (Col. 1:14). The forgiveness of sins through His blood is only through the offering of His body on the cross (Heb. 10:10). There is no scripture that states Jesus ever suffered in hell fire!!! The suffering of the sinless Lamb of God was enough. To teach Jesus had to suffer in hell to secure the salvation is sacrilegious (1 Pet. 3:18).

  39. To Bortmann…everything you have printed I agree 100 percent, especially about judging…and as the word says Disernmemt. I viewed these programs only twice and not once did I hear the words …God…Lord…Jesus…savior…Son of God….Holy Spirit. What Olsteen & Meyer has is actually Old. It’s a variation of Norman Vincent Peales Think & Grow Rich preaching. Their whole ministry is to make people Feel Good and Successful with out God, Jesus , etc. A Do It Yourself doctrine. That is what their followers get out of it. You know….Put on the Rose Tinted Glasses & blinders……to look at everything. ( until the middle of the week ) And comeback Sunday for your weekly Fix. Chuckle……both have what’s called a Strong Cult of Personality…..they know how to push the right buttons to get the right response. Hitler had it…Winston Churchill had it, Stalin had it, Reagan had it…why I don’t debate on this web site is because ….they are happy with their Dose of Olsteen & Meyer. Until something goes Bad with it ….they won’t Question It. Thank You

  40. If Christians aren’t supposed to judge other Christians, that we should leave all judging up to God like more and more ministers are teaching today, then what does Paul’s exhortation to judge and disciple below mean?

    ‘Now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” (1 Cor. 5:11-13)

  41. Today, I was severely rebuked for unfairly judging ministers teaching the heresy our Jesus died spiritually on the cross and had to born again when He resurrected from the dead. I was told you may judge the message; but never the messenger. My accuser shared we are all sinners; so no one can judge another because we don’t know their hearts. (1 Cor. 5:12-13) Now let me get this straight, what does ones heart have to do with exposing false teachers sowing heresies denying the Lord who once bought them??? (2 Pet. 2:1)

    As Christians how can we remain silent when:

    When Joel Osteen teaches one can be saved without knowing Jesus?
    When Rob Bell teaches there is no virgin birth?
    When T.D. Jakes teaches there is not three persons in the Trinity?
    When Ken Copeland teaches Jesus died spiritually on the cross?
    When Robert Schuller teaches there is no hell?
    When Charles Stanley teaches a believer can never fall away?
    When John Hagee teaches Jesus didn’t come to be the Messiah?
    When John MacArthur teaches speaking in tongues is demonic?
    When David Jeremiah teaches the rapture comes before the Beast?
    When Joseph Prince teaches repentance is not for believers?
    When Billy Graham teaches Mormons are Christians?
    When Larry Huch teaches Jesus is not the only begotten Son of God?

  42. I agree with much of what was said. I know Christ said you will know them by their fruits.. That is to say, behavior & character. What you produce for Christ. I read that Joyce Meyer keeps more for herself than what she puts back into her ministry. Its not an even balance. I know from observation, the more money you have, the greedier you get, the cheaper you are with others. My husband is private caregiver to millionaire; father and son suing each other, just udderly ridiculous!! And, cheap!! Want to keep every red cent they can without giving too much away. You want to keep more for yourself, the more you have, it’s just human nature. They are just human beings, plain and simple. If I want inspiration, I am more inspired by ordinary people I meet who share how they have overcome challenges without profiting from their pain. It is those people I will learn the most from.

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